Raster Scanning Posted 15 November , 2003 Share Posted 15 November , 2003 This picture I recently obtained from Canada was taken in Bedford, England (Bedford photographer). I think these are men of the 1/5th or 1/4th Seaforths, these units arrived in Bedford on August 15th 1914. They are obviously from a territorial battalion as they are wearing Imperial Service Badges. I have a few questions not being an expert on Scots regiments. 1) Did all the territorial battalions of the Seaforths have the same badge? (I know the non territorials had a different one). 2) What is the significance of the R/H cuff being a different colour. 3) The older man (middle row far right, SA medal ribbon) has RM on his cuff, any ideas what this means. Many thanks. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 15 November , 2003 Share Posted 15 November , 2003 John, 2) What is the significance of the R/H cuff being a different colour. It looks to be an armband worn in regulation manner for RMP (worn right fore arm)--Regimental Military Police 3) The older man (middle row far right, SA medal ribbon) has RM on his cuff, any ideas what this means. RM might actually be RMP Regimental Military Police. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 15 November , 2003 Share Posted 15 November , 2003 I thought that Regimental Police wore armbands with RP on them, I'm sure I have seen a photo of a group of RPs with that on their armbands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 15 November , 2003 Share Posted 15 November , 2003 John, they're 5th. 5th (Sutherland and Caithness Highland) Bn wore the Sutherland badge of a rearing cat (strictly a cat-a-mountain) within a strap bearing the Sutherland motto 'Sans Peur. They wore kilts of Sutherland tartan. All other Seaforth battalions, regular and TF, wore the stag's head capbadge derived from the M'Kenzie clan badge (M'Kenzies = Earls of Seaforth) and kilts of M'Kenzie tartan. Reason the 5th were different lies in their origins as the Sutherland Highland Rifle Volunteers and the patronage of the Duke of Sutherland. They were never actually designated a VB of the Seaforths but retained the SHRV title, on the formation of the TF they were designated as a TF Bn of the Seaforths but retained the Sutherland trappings. I understand closing time discussions between 'cats' and 'stags' were features of both world wars .... No idea about the armbands, but I think I've seen another picture of the old sweat with the SA medal - I'll have a dig. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 16 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2003 Thanks Joe, Lee & Jock. I have reduced the size of the picture as when I viewed it on a different computer it appeared a bit big. Joe what colour would the armband be, Red? Jock thanks for your offer, I appreciate any extra info you can give me. They are wearing trousers (trews), why not kilts? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 16 November , 2003 Share Posted 16 November , 2003 John, Black arm bands with red lettering. RMP pattern 8501/1915 changed to RP with pattern 9594/1917. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 18 November , 2003 Share Posted 18 November , 2003 John, Don't know if trews (either tartan or plain) were standard issue for ORs - Joe Sweeney's your man for that, but I suspect Joe would be the first to admit that purchasing and equipping of TF units was sometimes a bit 'informal'. I've seen officers sporting both trews and riding breeches of Sutherland tartan, but the kilt was definitely the thing. At one point in 14/15 kilts were being withdrawn from men who had not signed the foreign service obligation to equip those who had - but I would not read this as trews = home service. It looks as if the entire RP contingent are trousered. One factor at a time of rapid expansion of units, of course, is that there is a lot less material and a simpler manufacturing process involved in producing trousers. There are also times when trousers are simply more practical (and decent) than a kilt, particularly as kilts at this time were worn 'properly'. Shortly after going to France in May 15 a new MO fell foul of CO 1/5 Seaforth - " The last idiotic request he made to me personally was that all the men should be made to wear drawers with the kilt - did you ever hear the like?. I just told him that no Highland regiment was prepared to wear drawers of any description and when I wanted his advice as to how I was to clothe my men I would consult him." (Lt Col JJC Davidson to Mrs Davidson 19 May 15). Afraid I couldn't find the guy with the SA medal in other photos - the image archive has grown so much recently that it needs a real sort out. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 18 November , 2003 Share Posted 18 November , 2003 John, they're 5th. 5th (Sutherland and Caithness Highland) Bn wore the Sutherland badge of a rearing cat (strictly a cat-a-mountain) within a strap bearing the Sutherland motto 'Sans Peur. They wore kilts of Sutherland tartan. All other Seaforth battalions, regular and TF, wore the stag's head capbadge derived from the M'Kenzie clan badge (M'Kenzies = Earls of Seaforth) and kilts of M'Kenzie tartan. Reason the 5th were different lies in their origins as the Sutherland Highland Rifle Volunteers and the patronage of the Duke of Sutherland. They were never actually designated a VB of the Seaforths but retained the SHRV title, on the formation of the TF they were designated as a TF Bn of the Seaforths but retained the Sutherland trappings. I understand closing time discussions between 'cats' and 'stags' were features of both world wars .... No idea about the armbands, but I think I've seen another picture of the old sweat with the SA medal - I'll have a dig. Jock The staghead badge I'll post next. Meanwhile here is the Sutherland Crest. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 18 November , 2003 Share Posted 18 November , 2003 And here's the stag. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 24 November , 2003 Share Posted 24 November , 2003 Don't know if trews (either tartan or plain) were standard issue for ORs - Joe Sweeney's your man for that, but I suspect Joe would be the first to admit that purchasing and equipping of TF units was sometimes a bit 'informal'. I've seen officers sporting both trews and riding breeches of Sutherland tartan, but the kilt was definitely the thing. At one point in 14/15 kilts were being withdrawn from men who had not signed the foreign service obligation to equip those who had - but I would not read this as trews = home service. It looks as if the entire RP contingent are trousered. One factor at a time of rapid expansion of units, of course, is that there is a lot less material and a simpler manufacturing process involved in producing trousers. There are also times when trousers are simply more practical (and decent) than a kilt, particularly as kilts at this time were worn 'properly'. Shortly after going to France in May 15 a new MO fell foul of CO 1/5 Seaforth - " The last idiotic request he made to me personally was that all the men should be made to wear drawers with the kilt - did you ever hear the like?. I just told him that no Highland regiment was prepared to wear drawers of any description and when I wanted his advice as to how I was to clothe my men I would consult him." (Lt Col JJC Davidson to Mrs Davidson 19 May 15). Afraid I couldn't find the guy with the SA medal in other photos - the image archive has grown so much recently that it needs a real sort out. Jock Jock, Standard issue prior to war included one pair of trews for all Kilted Regiments in Regular Service. Also issued were Canvas trousers etc. I have quite a few pre-war photos of Highland units wearing Trews. For the TF it was a bit more complicated. The war office compeled all TFA to maintain a set of Service Dress for each soldier which did not include kilts. Kilts for the TFA were procured through TFA funds and sources. So from the beginning TF units had SD trousers. SD trousers also became very common amongst all highland units during the war and trews fell into disfavor as a waste of manufacturing capacity. I've letters from a man who was Black Watch and later transferred to the 232nd MGC coy. His letters while a BW allude to fact that he never was issued a kilt (did not see active service with the BW) and only wore SD trousers. Interesting quote on the wearing of drawers. Short woollen under Drawers for Highlanders were introduced on 18 March 1915 for wear under the kilt "when recommended by medical authorities". Two pairs were issued to all Highlanders in France. Photos exist of these being worn. Do you know if the subject came up again in the 5th once active service in trenches commenced? Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 25 November , 2003 Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Joe, I knew you would know. Away from home at the moment so this is a scrappy answer. No further references to drawers in Davidson’s letters. There are a couple of references in the 51 Div AQ War Diary - on 21 Oct 15 to ‘short drawers being approved for issue to kilted regiments’ and on 22 Oct 15 to ‘4000 suits of underclothing distributed’. Incidentally, I’ve seen an account of fatigue parties in France wearing only the kilt apron so as to keep the kilt proper dry. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gordon Posted 6 December , 2003 Share Posted 6 December , 2003 As an addendum to the above may I be allowed to say that a if soldier from a Highland Regiment suffered a leg wound and was sent to the UK he had to wear the trews to hide the bandages. This was to avoid hurting the sensibilities of the civilians he came in contact with during his convalescence. Regards Jim Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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