The Old Dreadnought

[PhilB]

This is the centenary of the launch of Dreadnought and while looking for info on her I came across this drawing of an older Dreadnought, sailors` hospital hulk, being towed away. She seems very high out of the water. Would that be due to lack of ballast? Does she have 5 banks of guns? (Surely not) And what does it say along the side? Phil B

[Tom Morgan]

Phil - it said,

SEAMEN'S HOSPITAL

SUPPORTED BY VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTIONS

FOR SEAMEN OF ALL NATIONS

in three lines, one above the other.

Tom

[PhilB]

Thanks, Tom. She appears to have lost a bit of superstructure in that shot. I assume she has 3 rows of guns, so what are the bottom line of holes? Ventilation for patients? Phil B

[duckman]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 13 2006, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She seems very high out of the water. Would that be due to lack of ballast? Does she have 5 banks of guns? (Surely not) And what does it say along the side? Phil B

Ballast - but also guns, ammunition, stores, food etc.

The old "three deckers" actually had five, six, or more decks (depending on the time), of which four typically carried guns. There were three full decks running the length of the ship with the main armament, typically 24 to 32 pounders on the lower deck and 18 - 24's on the others. Above the main deck, there are extra decks fore and aft - the forecastle and the quarterdeck and the poop. The forecastle and the quarterdeck also carried guns - 9 - 18 pounders, like the secondary armament on WW1 ships. You'll see a few holes in the stern for gunports as well (under the cabin windows) for use when being chased.

The bottom row of ports is to ventilate the lower compartments (orlop, bilges, hold) and are not gun ports. I presume they were pierced on her conversion to a hulk.

There were a few ships with four full gun decks, but they were freaks. If you look at Armada-era ships and before, some are carrying some level of artillery on six different decks.

[David Seymour]

DREADNOUGHT, 2nd Rate 98 guns, served at Trafalgar under Capt John Conn. Launched 1801. Hospital ship 1827. Breaking up completed 1857.

CALEDONIA, 1st Rate 120 guns. Launched 1808. Hospital ship DREADNOUGHT 1856. Broken up 1875.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,

David

[FAAAEd]

DREADNOUGHT, 2nd Rate 98 guns, served at Trafalgar under Capt John Conn. Launched 1801. Hospital ship 1827. Breaking up completed 1857.

CALEDONIA, 1st Rate 120 guns. Launched 1808. Hospital ship DREADNOUGHT 1856. Broken up 1875.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,

David

A little more on Dreadnought (ex-Caledonia) which must be the subject of the picture.

Rebuilt with curved stern, as pictured, at Plymouth between 5.1826 and 4.1830, On loan to Greenwich Seamans Hospital named changed to Dreadnought 21.5.1856, returned to RN 1870 and offered as a church ship but not accepted. To Metropolitan Asylums as a hospital ship for male convalescent smallpox patients 1871. Broken up at Chatham 2-3.1875.

Source, Lyon & Winfield 'The Sail & Steam Navy List : all the ships of the Royal Navy 1815-1889'.

As hinted at elsewhere, the titles 2-decker, 3-decker etc refers to the number of full gun decks. The fo'csle and quaterdecks are not included although they may, and usually did, carry guns. Although guns on the fo'csle and quarterdeck did count towards the number of guns alloted under the rating systems, e.g. First Rate 100 guns and over, second rates 90-98 guns, third rates (usally 2-deckers) 64 - 80 guns.

In Nelson's time that was it in the RN but with the 64s not being favoured in the line of battle as such, although there were some at Trafalgar and even a 50 gun ship (during the early to mid 18th century classed as a line-of-battle ship) in the British squadron at the Nile in 1798. The Spanish had the only 4-decker (136 guns) the Santissima Trinidad although she was originally built as a three decker.

The RN did not favour vessels larger than the 100 gun three decker until advances in construction, Seppings's diagonal bracing, allowed longer vessels with adequate resistance to hogging and sagging. Thus it was only from about later than 1805 that these larger 120 gun classes became common as indigenous builds.

Another blurring factor WRT gun ratings was caused by the introduction of the carronade which were not always counted into the rating. The carronade was a weapon that used a smaller powder charge to launch a projectile from a shorter barrel, but a barrel made to tighter tolerances with respect to bore, reducing windage and waste of power. Thus a much lighter weapon could fire a projectile of equal weight to the equivalent long-gun but over shorter distances. 64 pounder carronades were common in the battleships and 32 pounders in frigates where the heaviest long guns were mostly 18 pounders, or sometimes 24 pounders, as in the US heavy frigates of the 1812 War.

Equating ship with ship by rating alone will not yield a true comparison of strength. Particularly when it is considered, for example, that a French 18 pdr ball will be heavier than a British 18 pdr.

The ship in question was a three decker, and as has been indicated the lower tier of ports are for ventilation in her later roles as this area would have been below the waterline in normal service. Sometimes these vessels were grounded in soft silt in this later stage of their service and picketed to prevent capsize.

[FAAAEd]

Following on from my previous post and comparing the pictures posted by Phil_B and Tom Morgan I think that they are of two different vessels.

Phil_B's picture is of the later 120 gun ex Caledonia.

Tom_Morgan's is of the 98 gun Trafalgar veteran Dreadnought. The shape of the stern, squarer corners, and design of the galleries indicates that this ship is from that earlier age. Also the ship in Phil_B's posting appears larger, consider the number of gun-ports on the upper gun-deck below the quarterdeck.

[John Gilinsky]

Following on from my previous post and comparing the pictures posted by Phil_B and Tom Morgan I think that they are of two different vessels.

Phil_B's picture is of the later 120 gun ex Caledonia.

Tom_Morgan's is of the 98 gun Trafalgar veteran Dreadnought. The shape of the stern, squarer corners, and design of the galleries indicates that this ship is from that earlier age. Also the ship in Phil_B's posting appears larger, consider the number of gun-ports on the upper gun-deck below the quarterdeck.

The Dreadnought needs to be remembered as one of the earliest peacetime ongoing civilian hospital ships even though the organizing society clearly owed its origins to the many many unemployed and thus at health risk seamen in the immediate post-Napoleonic wars period (that is 1814 to 1818). The Society moved ashore in the latter 19th century and for a time was associated with the London Institute for Tropical Medicine.

John