Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 During the period of occupation of France & Belgium what happened or who maintained the British and Commonwealth Memorials and cemeteries ?. Where they looked after or simply left alone ?. It might seem odd but I am very curious as to how the Germans viewed these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 At least some of the IWGC groundstaff remained at their posts. There is a story of a garnder at a cemetary on the Somme successfully hiding fugitive Allied aircrew in his tool-shed. I can't recall his name, unfortunately. I have seen a number of Great War cemeteries that include WW2 graves. The one at Vlamertinge, where my GGGrandfather is buried, includes 5 BEF (I think) burials from the retreat to Dunkirk. Another thread here on the forum has photos (kindly posted by Aurel Sercu) of Hitler viewing the Mening gate, which I understand suffered some minor damage during World War 2. So at least one famous German Great War veteran was curious about Allied memorials. I haven't heard of deliberate abuse of Allied memorials of cemeteries during the German occupation of France and Belgium, but others might know of some examples. Of course, a degree of neglect was inevitable, and I suspect that the grass wass rather long by the time the Commission returned after the war! Regards, Ste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 The cemeteries were essentially abandoned to nature during WW2. The Germans did not generally deliberatly damage them or the memorials but some were damaged during fighting. However, there were some courageous souls who did continue to maintain the cemeteries to the best of their ability. Some of these were IWGC staff although most had escaped to UK and some unfortunately disappeared into labour camps. Also local people kept cemeteries tidy in some areas with tacit German agreement. Some of these cemeteries also contained WW1 German troops and this may have contributed to their being left alone. When IWGC got back after the war, the job was largely one of renovation rather than rebuilding - for which they were very thankful as they had to set about building WW2 cemeteries at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 The occupying forces in general left the cemeteries alone but did blow up the Memorial to 418 th Regt who were victims of the first gas attack at Steenstart on 8th May 1941. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 They also blew up the Aussie at Mt St Quentin near Peronne and the monument of Alsatian sandstone at COmpiegne but numbered pieces took them to Germany where French recovered it and you see it today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 14 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2003 Hi Everyone Thanks for the quick answers, I had suspected that the Germans basically left everything alone, I have relatives at Le Touret and Thiepval and wanted to know that they had been left in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 I haven't heard of deliberate abuse of Allied memorials of cemeteries during the German occupation of France and Belgium, but others might know of some examples. Of course, a degree of neglect was inevitable, and I suspect that the grass wass rather long by the time the Commission returned after the war! There was some descration of allied memorials in WW2. The classic example was one removed from the forest at Compiegne and, of course, the famous "railway carriage" was removed from the clearing where the armistice was signed The clearing itself was "cleared" save that Foch's statue was left to gaze over Hitler's retribution for November 1918. I think you will also find that a number of French memorials were damaged by German fire, though whether this was deliberate as opposed to gratuitous I am not sure. Visitors to Arras need only look at the French memorial in front of the railway station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevew Posted 16 November , 2003 Share Posted 16 November , 2003 I thought I read somewhere, but I maybe wrong so don't quote me!! that the German high command told there troops not to damage cemeteries and I thought there where one or two very severe punishments on those who neglected those instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 16 November , 2003 Share Posted 16 November , 2003 They also blew up the Aussie at Mt St Quentin near Peronne I'm not surprised they did this Paul. I may be wrong as I can't locate the photo but I think the statue depicted an Australian soldier standing on and bayonetting a German Eagle. Not the kind of image they would want to leave standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 That's true Andrew and also true of the one at Compiegne which had a Prussian Eagle bayoneted. Well it's bayonetted again but the replacement Ozzie one is much milder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 I have an original photo of Merville CWGC from 1940, when the war swept over France; my father took it when invading; so to speak about 2-3 weeks into the occupation: the headstones look pretty messy as if within the last 1 to 2 years the maintenance was not - let's say - too enthusiastic by those who should be responsible in times of prewar/peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Dixon Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 There is an interesting story about Serre Road No 2 cemetery during WW2. The CWGC gardener Mr Leach was left behind in 1940 when the other staff were evacuated. The cemetery contained 2 German graves and the Germans gave Mr Leach a bicycle so he could keep maintaining the graves. He lived at the time in Beaumont Hamel. Mr Leach became involved in the organisation that helped Allied airmen escape from France. He hid over 40 airmen in the potting shed at the cemetery and after the War was decorated by both Britain and the USA. Supposedly true but I am sure CWGC would confirm or deny this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 German troops also destroyed a French memorial to the XXX Corps (if I remember right), located on the Moreuil-Demuin road, on the slopes above the former place and near the wood where Gordon Flowerdew won his VC in 1918. The memorial was rebuilt after the war, and bears a plaque telling of its destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 There is a picture of a French Memorial in 13 Years After, Will R Bird, at Proyart? Will check spelling tonight unless someone knows. Looks very big an arc.Is it still there? Am trying to remember if I have seen it, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 I posted a picture some time ago, under the category 'Western Front', showing most likely Bedford House a few months after the liberation. in 1944. The picture shows a lot of devastation, and a pile of cracked headstones. The picture was taken by Herbert Tomson, IWGC gardener. I'm not sure what caused the damage though. The headstones look overall quite derty, the trees and plants need a big cleanup, but the grass seems to have been mawn. I'm quite sure Tyne Cot was taken care of by the local city workers of Passendale or Zonnebeke. All the IWGC-gardeners that did not get away were imprisoned, although it seems some exeptions were made, like for Irish gardeners. regards, Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 18 November , 2003 Share Posted 18 November , 2003 The memorial I mentioned yesterday that's pictured in the Bird book is/was at Proyart, do not know where that is but the other picture on the page was Rancourt so presume it's near there. It was a very large arch with a statue in the open space. It must be gone now. Any one know anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 19 November , 2003 Share Posted 19 November , 2003 For a very interesting read about the CWGC may I suggest the book called 'The unending vigil' by Philip Longworth. I found it to be a fascinating history of the CWGC. It may still be available from the CWGC ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 19 November , 2003 Share Posted 19 November , 2003 Yes it is still available. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 20 November , 2003 Admin Share Posted 20 November , 2003 Paul (G) Last time I went there, the Proyart memorial was there, it's a smaller Arc De Triomphe, with a Poilu under the arch. There used to be 2 guns as well, not sure if they are there now. Proyart isn't far from Bray sur Somme. Regards, Michelle (PS my hair isn't blue, like my avatar, just dark brown with lots of grey) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 Thanks much Michelle, I had said I thought I had seen this but just was not sure. WIll take a look at a map tonight and see if I can find this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 23 November , 2003 Share Posted 23 November , 2003 I have a photo of the memorial to the 1st Australian Tunneling Co. The plaque shows bullet holes received by German soldiers during WW2. You can see this on my website or just click here. Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 23 November , 2003 Share Posted 23 November , 2003 Ryan, I can clearly see : these are definitive British bullet holes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 24 November , 2003 Share Posted 24 November , 2003 Some kind of inspector clueso eh? I suggest you go and tell Tony Holt that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 24 November , 2003 Share Posted 24 November , 2003 Ryan, the point I want you to understand is: wherever is war, it doesn't make halt just because of a cemetery! Cemeteries are part of the landscape and no warrior thinks ethic when it comes to "you or me". They are protected but....maybe they are German bullet holes, so what? My Grandfather had to fight Commonwealth troops ON Hebuterne cemetery - I bet a lot of bullet holes. By the way, there were a lot of bomb holes on WW II cemeteries in Hamburg, Cologne, Bremen, Berlin, Dresden and and and. You got my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 24 November , 2003 Share Posted 24 November , 2003 Sure, I just don't see why you felt you had to make it. The discussion was about cemeteries etc during WW2 and I was just pointing out the fact I had been to Hill 60 and had a photo should anyone want to see it showing the bullet holes reportedly put there by alledged retreating Germans. Nothing more political than that my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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