Robert Graves

[Tim Birch]

Paul

I am fascinated by your comments about Robert Graves. My edition of "Goodbye to All That" is dated 1929, and I haven't read any subsequent editions.

As you say the book is a cracking read, and I had no idea that it had been alleged that he had fabricated parts of it. I should be interested to learn more about this.

For an ex-officer to make false claims would surely have resulted in considerable scandal at the time?

Tim

[ianw]

Tim,

Cynics say that Graves "souped up" "G t A T " to ensure good sales - and if that is the case , he was certainly successful. His defenders would say that he was essentially a poet and a considerable authority on the Greek myths and that he therefore sought to catch the spirit of Great War events and to contribute to the myth making. The choice is for the reader to decide.

As you say, a great book as long as it is not read as straight history.

[Paul Reed]

People often forget that both Graves and Sassoon were writers; both their books contain an element of 'faction' and that should be considered when evaluating them as a true picture of war experience.

[Tim Birch]

Embellishing or being economical with the truth seems to be a trait which crops up from time to time when soldiers (or writers in uniform) narrate their experiences. There has been controversy about "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom". Recently an expedition trying to repeat some of the journeys descibed by TE Lawrence failed to undertake them in anything like the time that he claimed he had. Their conclusion was that he couldn't possibly have done them in his claimed timescales, and following the routes described.

Could it be that because of the fog of uncertainty surrounding most actions in warfare, coupled with the fact, for long periods nothing happens and when it does, most of those involved have no idea at the time what is happening or how they fit into the boader spectrum of events, their narratives are likely to make dull reading unless embellished a little? Possibly most War writers are guilty of this to some extent?

Tim

[robwilliams]

If you read Dunne's book, 'The War The Infantry Knew' you get some idea of the feelings Graves stirred up. Dunne was the M.O. of the 2/RWF and took exception to a lot of what Graves wrote. Of the two books I much prefer Dunne's, it is an excellent read.

Rob

[Tim Birch]

Very many thanks to you all.

Dunn's "The War the Infantry Knew" was the first of the Great War first hand accounts I read, and that was some time ago. At the time, and not then having read books by Graves, Sassoon or Blunden, the Introduction to TWTIK went over my head, and I had largely forgotten it. This "amnesia" continued when I subsequently read Graves, Sassoon and Blunden!

I have now dug out my copy of TWTIF, and re-read the Introduction in the light of your comments. I now see how the publication of Grave's book caused some outrage, and in the case of Blunden, some pique. Dunn, the professional soldier/doctor, would have found it difficult to understand Graves the poet.

It is interesting to see that between 1928 and 1938 there was considerable interaction between Graves, Sassoon, Blunden and Dunn with cross support and critisism of each others manuscripts. Although Graves gave Dunn consent to use GTAT as a source for his own work, Dunn did not take up the offer on the grounds that "There was nothing I could use...."

Of the four, Dunn was the only non-poet, and his narrative is probably the most down to earth. I think it is time for me to start re-reading all of these books a bit more critically.

I see that Graves published "But it Still Goes On" in 1930. Have any of you read that? Any comments on it?

Tim

[Guest Geoff Moran]

Paul Fussell, in “The Great War and Modern Memory”, discusses “Good-bye to All That” in a chapter entitled “Theater of War” under a subheading “The Caricature Scenes of Robert Graves”. Fussell, of course, subsequently came in for a critical hiding himself, but he gives some the examples of Graves’ anecdotes:

“Graves asserts - it is a popular cynical vignette - that machinegun crews often fired off several belts without pause to heat the water in the cooling-jacket for making tea. Amusing but highly unlikely - Coppard quietly notes that no one wants tea laced with machine oil. Another of Graves's machinegun anecdotes collapses as ‘fact’ upon inquiry. At one point he says:

‘There was a daily exchange of courtesies between our machineguns and the Germans' at stand-to; by removing cartridges from the ammunition belt one could rap out the rhythm of the familiar prostitutes' call: "MEET me DOWN in Picc-a-DiLL-y," to which the Germans would reply, though in slower tempo, because our guns were faster than theirs: "Yes, with-out My DRAWERS ON!"’

Very nice. But the fact is that if you remove cartridges from the belt the gun stops working when the empty space encounters the firing mechanism”.

Fussell doesn’t seem to think that Graves ever intended that these bijou little japes would be treated seriously.

By contrast Cyril Falls, in “War Books”, says that “his war scenes have been justly acclaimed to be excellent”. However, he condemns Graves’ negative attitude.

Both Falls and Fussell saw active service (but in different wars), so take your pick.

I, too, have commenced rereading TWTIY. If I could read only one book on the life of a unit in and out of the line I would unhesitatingly chose this one. It combines a mass of detailed information on the organisation and operation of a fighting unit, yet its contributors consistently and sympathetically show its human side.

PS: “Good-bye to All That” came out in a revised edition in 1957. If your 1929 edition is “first state unexpurgated” then you have a nice little investment!

[Myrtle]

When I first read "The War the Infantry Knew" I couldn't put it down until unfortunately I dropped it in the bath and had to dry it out before completing. An excellent read.

Have you read the book: Robert Graves - The Years with Laura Riding by Richard Percival Graves. There is a chapter in that book entitled "The Writing of Good-bye to All That" in which Richard Graves explains why the book poses serious problems for historians and biographers.

It is also interesting to note that Robert's father, Alfred added a chapter to his own biography (which was written in his eighties) saying that " Goodbye to All That ,calls for many more corrections than I can here enumerate, having been written largely from memory, sometimes from hearsay, and often long after the events described."

Regards

Myrtle

[Muerrisch]

Please see new thread "Robert Graves Rides Again"

[munce]

I also read Coppel's comment on Graves' machine gun story about the prostitute call. Maybe, though, some machine gunners did fire off this rhythm, but instead of removing bullets (which as Coppel said wouldn't have worked), simply stopped firing for the intervals necessary to make the correct beat? Graves would therefore have been guilty only of coming to a false conclusion as to how it was done, rather than of making the whole episode up.