Saddler Ahmed Rahman ECTC

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I notice the above Remembering of this mans death and grave in Israel.

But looking at the date could there be some mistake as to died at Hafia the Britsh force didn't arrive there till 1917/18 not 1916?

IS there some mix up?

Cheers

S.B

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

G'day mate

Is this the fellow you mean:

Name: AHMED ABDOR RAHMAN

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Saddler

Regiment/Service: Egyptian Camel Transport Corps

Date of Death: 06/10/1916

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Cemetery: HAIFA INDIAN CEMETERY

Cheers

Bill

[michaeldr]

From the CWGC web site

"Historical Information: Haifa was captured by the Mysore and Jodhpur Lancers on 23 September 1918 and the 33rd Combined Clearing Hospital was moved to the town on 15 October. The cemetery continued in use until October 1920. Haifa Indian Cemetery contains the graves of 49 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War.

No. of Identified Casualties: 46"

15 Oct 1918 is the next earliest after this chap

[although there is one other with a date spread 01/01/18 to 31/12 20]

At first glance 1916 looks like a mistake

[beersheba]

perhaps a post war interment..bought in from another site perhaps....or even a POW just a thought...

who ever picked this guy ...great choice...what a wonderfull mix we have on this site...inspired.

Andy @ History Horse

[michaeldr]

In what is after all called the Haifa Indian Cemetery, the identified buried are indeed all Indian,

except for two

The ECTC Saddler whom we remember today, AHMED ABDOR RAHMAN,

and

MURAD HUSSEIN

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Yuibashi (Captain)

Regiment/Service: Egyptian Army

Secondary Unit Text: Medical Corps

Date of Death: between 01/01/1918 and 31/12/1920

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Cemetery: HAIFA INDIAN CEMETERY

Both of these gentlemen seem to be Egyptian and in both cases there seems to be some doubt about their date of death. As with the ELC, a large number of whom are remembered, but not named, at Ramleh, these Egyptians have been let down by poor record keeping which is in sharp contrast to that accorded to other elements of the imperial forces

[Terry Denham]

There is every chance that he was a concentration burial.

[BeppoSapone]

Any chance he died as a POW?

There is an Australian soldier, who died in 1941, buried at Anzio. All the other graves are from 1944.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2374013

[michaeldr]

There is indeed a chance that it could be the result of a concentration

However as I understand it, in October 1916 the allies were still to the west of El Arish in the Sinai and not even in Palestine yet

That is a very long way from Haifa, and with about three other cemeteries to pass on the way, in Gaza and at Ramleh.

Such a movement of a burial seems most unlikely to me.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Of cause the plot thinkens.

If he did died in 1916 as a PoW how and where was he captured?

The CTC began forming in Dec 1915 and operated a few compies in the western desert to suport the push against the senussi rebelion, they also operated in the Dufar area (Southern Egypt) and around the Canel (Eastern Egypt).

They only crossed the Canel behind the main Army between July to Aug 1916 and never near the front line to be captured?

But the Egyptian part of this was already working pre war to a small extent but in Dec 1915 and later around July 1916 many white soldiers came into the CTC and ECTC and these companies expended in number and size.

I could find no reports of their soldiers being captured (but few mentions of natives are shown) but a few natives listed as KIA from coming under fire from Artillery in 1917-18 or aircraft bombs.

So if he did died in 1916 why move his body to Hafia?

Or did he died in Oct 1918

S>B

[michaeldr]

Pals,

I have had a very disturbing day

I went to Haifa today, believing that a look at the headstone would help to answer this question

I am by no means an expert of CWGC Cemeteries, having visited a few on Gallipoli and only a couple here, but none in Europe.

So imagine my surprise; the Haifa Indian Cemetery has no headstones, whatsoever!

There are beautiful lawns, with a few palm trees, enclosed by very neat stone walls, but no headstones.

There are however two plaques on two walls

One remembers those of the Moslem faith

and another remembers those of other faiths; Hindu, Sikh etc

Names are given, as are Rank and Regiment, but no other details whatsoever, including the date of death

[at a later date I hope to add a couple of photographs here]

[michaeldr]

As promised a couple of photographs

The first is a general view of the Haifa Indian Cemetery

No headstones, but a large lawned area with an inner square bounded by a low wall

The plaque at the back of the inner square remembers the Hindus and others

while the similar plaque at the back of the cemetery remembers the Muslims,

including Saddler Ahmed Abdor Rahman of the Egyptian Camel Transport Corps

[michaeldr]

Inscriptions on the very light cream coloured stone here are difficult to photograph in the bright sunlight

so I have played with colours here and I hope that the result can be read

It gives the name of the corps, his rank of Saddler and his name, but alas, no date of death which is what I was hoping for.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I think the CWGC got the date mixed up somewhere as he could not have died in Oct 1916 and be buried in Haifa.

His death must have been in Oct 1918 when element of the the CTC was moving supplies behind the lines following our victories.

Egyptian natives appear to be little mentioned in the records as even the company records list few names in them other then the white officers and NCO's and Egyptians with important positions.

Cheers

S.B

[michaeldr]

quote: "Egyptian natives appear to be little mentioned in the records as even the company records list few names in them other then the white officers and NCO's and Egyptians with important positions."

Your right there Steve;

even for the Medical Corps' Captain [recorded next to the Saddler] they could not pin down the date of death within 36 months

The treatment of the Egyptians compares most unfavourably with that given to other units. In the adjacent Haifa War Cemetery is a single plaque to 110 anonymous members of the Egyptian Labour Corps "buried near this spot." A similar plaque at Ramleh remembers 966 ELC men, with the same bleak words. In France their mis-treatment led to a strike which was put down with live fire; I think that the numbers were 23 dead and 24 wounded. After the war there was major civil unrest in Egypt, one of the chief causes of which was the treatment of their men during the recent conflict. This was the main reason why Allenby was recalled to Cairo.

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Slowly I am being persuaded to spend money on books for another [after Gallipoli] theatre. By way of introduction to this campaign, my latest reading is

'The Advance of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force ... July 1917 to October 1918, Compiled from Official Sources' Second Ed. by HMSO, 1919, as republished by N & M.

Lots of info for the newbie like myself, including some CTC figs for 1917 & 1918 [alas none for 1916 which is allegedly when this chap died] however as these details appear to be somewhat rare, I add them here

Camel Transport Corps

casualties sustained during 1917 ops

Egyptians: Killed - 38, DoW - 8, Wounded - 158, Missing - 125, Died of Exposure - 209, Captured - 1, TOTAL - 539

casualties sustained during 1918 ops

Egyptians: Killed - 7, Wounded - 19, Missing - 38, Died of Exposure - none, TOTAL - 64

No 1918 figures are given for DoW or for Captured, the implication being that there were none.

An explanation of the difference between the two years is gives as;

"Compared with 1917 operations the (1918) work of the camels was exceedingly light. The distances covered were very small; the weather conditions excellent, the country in which the majority of the companies were working was fairly open. Consequently casualties were very few."

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Thats sounds about right, as the terrain of Palestine did not favor the camel.

This led to the disbandment of the Camel Corps Bn's (or at least most of it) while the use of motor transport became larger.

The other thing was the formtion of a number of donkey companies to replace the camels in some companies of the CTC.

S.B

[michaeldr]

quote: "The other thing was the formtion of a number of donkey companies to replace the camels in some companies of the CTC."

Steve,

Confirming your above, there are a couple of paras. on the Donkeys

Formation of donkey transport companies commenced in Sept & Oct 1917; establishment, 2,000 donkeys to a company

"In November 1917 the first of the donkey transport companies, No.1 D.T.C., moved from Rafa to the front and this company was employed during the whole of the winter months under the most arduous conditions.

No.2 D.T.C. moved up early in 1918 followed by Nos.3 & 4. These companies comprised 2,000 donkeys in each and during the summer of 1918 were largely employed in road making and were distributed over the whole forward area from Jericho to Jaffa. The donkeys, allowing for the casualties in No.1 Company caused by abnormal conditions of work in the winter of 1917, and the lack of proper rations at times have been kept in remarkably good condition.

The following table shows the casualties sustained by the donkeys* during the operations:-

1917 ... Killed - 5, Wounded - 5, Died of Wounds - 2, Died of Exposure - 233; TOTAL - 245

1918 ... Killed - 9, Wounded - 12, DoW - none, Died of Exposure - 2; TOTAL - 23"

* elsewhere separate figs are given for British, Egyptians, Camels and Horses, so the inference here is that these stats. refer only to the animals of the DTC

regards

Michael