London Scottish Tam - tartan badge backing

[john in minnesota]

I recently picked up this tam which I believe is correct for the London Scottish. It appears to have had a tartan swatch behind the badge. What did that swatch look like? same color as the tourie? does anyone have a spare bit of that cloth?

[BeppoSapone]

I think the badge backing should be "Hodden Grey".

Take a look at the "Members in Uniform" thread to see "Jock" Broomfield wearing a London Scottish kilt of this colour.

[Steven Broomfield]

John won't see me there - he's too junior rank to get into Skindles - so I've re-posted here.

The 'tartan' is, as Beppo says, Hodden Grey (also known as Elcho Grey), which was really a sort of blanket material (dare I say). Still worn by A (London Scottish) Coy of the London Regiment.

The patch was, as John says, worn behind the badge.

The blue toorie is interesting: we are unique in wearing a blue toorie on the glengarry, and I believe it may have been transposed to the cap, t o' s. You might want to get confirmation from the regimental HQ on that, though. You might also ask them nicely for a patch - they may well be able to help (they used to hand them out for us to sew on our bonnets!).

Certainly, the blue toorie seems to have been worn on the helmet, stitched to the helmet cover, in 1916 - photos on the Somme show it very clearly.

Have to say the blue 'ribbon' at the back is interesting, too. Have you any provenance for the bonnet? Is it dated?

Finally, here I am, in all my 26 years-ago finery - look and be amazed!

[Steven Broomfield]

Just realised - ignore the glengarry badge: it's the (not lamented) badge of the 51st Highland Volunteers, our 'parent' unit of the time. The London Jock badge is the miniature on the purse.

The black spat buttons are pretty uncommon, too - we were part of the corps of the Gordon Highlanders, who wore black spat buttons, in memory (I believe) of Wolfe.

[Rob B]

I always thought you got your black spat buttons at Corunna when you helped carry General Moore back during the withdrawal.

As to the blue ribbon and tourie did the Seaforths not have them as well-I know the Queens Own Highlanders covered almost everything in blue-jerseys and hackles!

Cheers,

Rob

[gnr.ktrha]

Nice to see you did not trouble the barber for a haircut!!

Regards,

Stewart

[roger]

I'm afraid this isn't answering John's question but to illustrate the wearing of the tourrie on the steel helmet, is that how you spell it? here's a model figure I have painted of a London Scottish soldier.

[john in minnesota]

Here's a photo of the cap interior: It conforms to the WW1 specs and has a service number written inside 5506 - of which 150+ soldiers had that number during the 1st war (including almost every highland unit). The tam is just as I received it - but there are extra holes behind the badge so it may be replaced?

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Just been looking through 'The Uniforms of the London Scottish 1859-1959, by J O Robson.''

It says that it was in the Spring of 1915 that a Khaki TOS with blue tourie was first issued. It makes no reference to the colour of the tap at the back. However the regulations for 1921 state that the tourie was blue and so was the 'Rosette'. I wonder if the rosette is the tape at the back or if they are refering to the badge backing? It does not say, however there is a colour illustration of a London Scot in the great war and he is shown wearing a Blue square patch behind the badge, not a Hodden Grey patch.

Regards,

Stewart

[Tom A McCluskey]

Steve,

I like the crucified Moose cap badge...those were the days No fighting fella, I'm just kidding That picture looks like the days when Scottish regiments had to wear the brigade cap badges. The London Scottish were aligned with the Gordon Highlanders (evident in the black buttons on the spats). However, nowadays I think the London Scottish are one of very few regiments that have, or will have their original cap badge in use.

aye

Tom McC

PS - John, I'm not too sure if the London Scottish wore a tartan patch during the First World War - but I am probably wrong

[Tom A McCluskey]

Just in support of Paul's reply, there is a picture on the cover of the Osprey Men-at-Arms series, British Territorial Units 1914-1918, of a London Scottish soldier.

It describes: a blue tourie on the TOS, a blue backing to the cap badge, and blue flashes on the hose. In addition to this, for a short period of time, another blue tourie was worn on the helmet cover. Although, this practice was abandoned as it was though to be a good aiming mark.

Hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

[mtrpltpara]

John, here is a photo of a WW1 London Scottish badge from my own collection, again showing the blue backing. The backing is darker than it appears in the photo, effects of flash.

There is an incredible account of a bayonet charge by 2 companies of the 1st Battalion at Messines in `The Saturday Night Soldiers` by A.V. Sellwood.

Bill.

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks guys - I've learend something about my regiment!

[john in minnesota]

Not come across the blue tape at the rear before, but it does not suprise me. In those days it could be a Company or even Platoon distinction.

Paul

The blue tape tie at the rear appears to have been made from a length of hose flash wool...

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

The Blue tape on the back of the Bonnet may be made from a dyed length of Putties tape. I know there were some units who dyed the tapes different colours and used them as battle patches etc.

In your photo, the tape does look very much like the material as used for putties tape, it even appears to have the same weave.

Have you e-mailed the Regimental Museum, it would be interesting to know if it is a Company or battalion indicator?

Regards,

Stewart

[Joe Sweeney]

Paul,

What makes you think the Glengarry cover is home made? Khaki glengarry covers were actually pattern sealed early in the war before the balmorals then ToS became predominant.

I've never actually seen the glen cover before.

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

Hi Joe,

It could be an issue cover I suppose. The fabric is a lightweight ironed cotton and has a kind of 'one size fits all' look about it.

The other covers I have for the Balmoral bonnet and the TOS are made of khaki drill and have tinplate buttons to secure them. Altogether a more robust item.

Come to think of it, if you were to make your own cover, it would be a better fit!

Photos to follow tomorrow, including one of a cloth covered glengarry.

regards

Paul

Paul,

Thanks. I've never actually seen the the glen cover before so I don't have a frame of reference as to what the issue was actually like except for the descriptions in the RACD books and issue scales. So I'm not sure how to differentiate between an issue or home made.

Thanks again,

Joe Sweeney

[Tom A McCluskey]

Paul,

A good picture of the Blue Balmoral with the Khaki cover. Quite often archivists mistake soldiers wearing this as a 'tourie-less' bonnet. Whereas the soldiers are actually wearing this cover over their dark blue balmoral - it makes them look like they have 'pointy' heads. This is covered in History of the Black Warch in the Great War Vol I (Wauchope) page 200-201.

Steve,

Please find enclosed a picture of the 'Crucified Moose', and an article to do with this. All of the battalions in the Highland Brigade had to wear this cap badge. Mad Mitch (of the Argylls) decided, whilst stroming the crater in Aden with bayonets fixed, that his boys would no longer wear this affront and told his boys to don the old Argyll cap badge. I think most of the Highland brigade had regained their cap badges by 1969. Maybe this is the fate that will befall the current 'Crucified Puss':

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Aden/700.htm

Aye

Tom McC

[7t2ndswinger]

Paul,

A good picture of the Blue Balmoral with the Khaki cover. Quite often archivists mistake soliders wearing this as a tourie-less bonnet. Whereas the soldiers are actually wearing this cover over their dark blue balmoral - it makes them look like they have 'pointy' heads. This is covered in History of the Black Warch in the Great War Vol I (Wauchope) page 200-201.

Steve,

Please find enclosed a picture of the 'Crucified Moose', and an article to do with this. All of the battalions in the Highland Brigade had to wear this cap badge. Mad Mitch (of the Argylls) decided, whilst stroming the crater in Aden with bayonets, that his boys would no longer wear this affront and told his boys to don the old Argyll cap badge. I think most of the Highland brigade had regained their cap badges by 1969. Maybe this is the fate that will befall the current 'Crucified Puss':

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Aden/700.htm

Aye

Tom McC

The London Scottish were the cadet unit at my secondry school (Westminster City, Victoria, London SW1) in the early to mid- 1970's. I'm sure they were still wearing the Highland Brigade badge on a To'S. Would I be correct ?

Keith

Keith

[Steven Broomfield]

From memory (I do have the programme of the inaugration parade of the 'new' London Regt, which has all the gen, but it's in the filing system somewhere):

I was in 1/51 Highland, 1978 - 81; at that time it consisted of:

HQ Coy (badged Black Watch), Perth

'A' Coy (BW) Dundee

'K' Coy (BW), Kirkcaldy

'E' Coy (A&SH), Stirling

'G' Coy (LS) London

'V' Coy (Liverpool Scottish) Liverpool

Companies wore the Moose with regimental tartan (or, in HQ, A, and K Coys, the red budgie) - V Coy also wore a blue hackle; we wore the Hodden patch.

2/51, who we met at Basic Training and rarely otherwise, was mostly A&SH, I believe - indeed, shortly after I left, E Coy joined 2/51, which becmae an all-ASH Bn.

3/51 appears to have had the real northern boys, including some Lovat Scouts.

In No 2 Dress, we again wore regimental distinction, but BW Coys still wore the Moose, together with the budgie.

Best, though, was Major Hal Klepak, Royal Highlanders of Canada, attached to G Coy for a while. On a memorable Remembrance Parade, he wore Canadian No 2 - quite hideous: Blue Balmoral with red Black watch distinctions; bottle green jacket, with gold naval-style rank braid on the cuffs; some extremely tastless white gloves; BW kilt and hose. The overall effect was nothing short of revolting. Our officers, naturally, wore khaki, with brown leather gloves, Hodden kilt and brown and blue hose.

As we walked down the steps at 59, a Scottish voice was heard to observe: "Gee honey. I guess he must be from the Scahddish Navy"

My, how Hal Klepak laughed......not!

[gnr.ktrha]

''Paul,

A good picture of the Blue Balmoral with the Khaki cover. Quite often archivists mistake soliders wearing this as a 'tourie-less' bonnet. Whereas the soldiers are actually wearing this cover over their dark blue balmoral - it makes them look like they have 'pointy' heads. This is covered in History of the Black Warch in the Great War Vol I (Wauchope) page 200-201.

Steve''

Hello,

I have seen a couple of Blue Balmoral bonnets which in fact have Khaki linnings. They were turned inside out when in the trenches, and the badge taken off and put on the outside.

What fantastic photographs. It's great to see these lesser known items.

Regards,

Stewart

[Tom A McCluskey]

Stewart,

Never read of any incidents of this, although I have read about, or seen pictures of, chaps wearing balaclavas and cap comforters. There are quite a few of the 5th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) on the net.

Here is the excerpt from Wauchope, who is meticulous about dress, not forgetting this is his own battalion (2nd Bn BW) which was brigaded with the 4th Bn BW in the Bareilly Bde, and he had a lot of influence of the training and conduct of this battalion. Also, from the text, it looks like the cover came with the bonnet.

I have seen quite a few picture of the chaps wearing the stated covers, on several you can see the band of the cover slipping up the side of the balmoral.

I know that it does not cover every Regiment's foibles/habits/dress but the Tyneside Scottish Balmoral is evidence that this practice was wider than the traditional Highland and Lowland battalions (and Divisions). After this dress (the first 9-10 months of the war), the Khaki balmoral was on issue during the summer of 1915 followed by the TOS. It looks like the New Army battalions of the Black Watch went straight to Khaki Balmorals from glengarrys - in July 1915 (HBWIGW - Vol III, 9th Bn BW).

The excerpt also shows the attempt to make all of the soldiers look the same, and provide a more camouflaged colour by issuing Service Caps. However, those stubborn jocks were not having it

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Here is the other bit

Aye

Tom McC

[gnr.ktrha]

Tom you should not have put yourself to so much trouble, I have an original set of Wauchope's 3 Volume set of books on the Black Watch in WW1, and have read the above attachments serveral times. You did not have to try and prove to me that they exist as I have an example in my own collection [named to a 1st Battalion, Black Watch soldier from Perth].

However, back to my point, there was a version of the Blue bonnet which had a Khaki lining, which when worn at the front was reversied so that the lining was on the outside. As a result they do lool like a bonnet without a toorie. I have seen about 4 examples in the last 7 years, in various collections. I will see if I can get a photo for you.

Stewart

[Joe Sweeney]

Covers for Blue Balmorals came in at leat two varieties. The first one was a simple Khaki cover that did not reach front line service until around the end of Feb 1915. The War Diary of the 1st Gordons records that in Feb 15 troops were ordered not to wear the Blue Balmorals until the Khaki covers became available. The Balmorals initial came without the covers. Coincidently the BEF issued instructions that the covers were being made and delivered to units with GRO 671 of Feb 1915. Later in July 1915 a waterproof khaki cover pattern was sealed that was supposed to have replaced all of the initial khaki covers rushed out in early 1915.

The khaki version of the Balmoral was pattern sealed on 3 May 1915. However, its issue was concurrent with the Blue varieties. As late as October 1915 BEF issue scales were still stating “Bonnet, Balmorals, will be issued with khaki cover, if not made of khaki material"

Not only were the Balmorals supplied with covers but the ToS were also supplied with waterproof khaki covers. These can also have the appearance of the trourie less cap.

The photo is a draft of the 11th Gordon's prior to embarkation to France in 1916. All are wearing the waterproof covers. One man may actually be wearing a Balmoral instead of the ToS.

The 11th Gordon's published a photographic record in 1916 of most of the drafts that proceeded from the battalion. It's a very good record of the chnages in Highland wear. Most of the photos of the drafts show men wearing Glengarries and most show the Gordon's wearing the plain blue Glengarry introduced in October 1914 to replace manufacture of the diced ones.

Joe Sweeney