RFC/RAF Roundels

[Stephen Nulty]

Just reading through “Stand To” Issue 77, and specifically an article by Dale Hjort entitled “The War Lists of Caius College, Cambridge”, I came across a little titbit that was new to me, and I thought worthy of sharing.

It briefly relates that one of the first casualties from the college was Captain Theodore Crean (26/10/1914) of the Northamptonshire Regt., attached to RFC.

Speaking of Crean, it states “…whose aircraft was brought down by the rifle fire of our own men. The Tommies had mistaken the Union Flag wing markings for the enemy Maltese Cross, and Theodore Crean’s misfortune encouraged the introduction of the famous roundel markings”.

I never knew that the Union Flag had been used. Anybody know any more about this?

[SiegeGunner]

The 'aces' of the Forum may shoot me down in flames on this one, but I have always understood that roundels were first applied to aircraft by the French, as a stylised 2-D representation of the Republican cockade, and were later adopted by the British (with the colour sequence reversed), in the interests of simplifying aircraft recognition — anything with roundels was one of ours.

Mick

[Dolphin]

Stephen/Mick

The first RFC aircraft to accompany the BEF to France had no national markings. Early in the War it was found that Allied soldiers were prone to firing at all overflying aircraft, perhaps to be "on the safe side" against any harm that an aeroplane might bring. Hence, on 2 October 1914 it was decided to paint the Union flag on the under-side of RFC aircraft wings. The problem that then emerged was that the St George cross was rather dominant in the design, and could be confused with the German cross. On 29 October 1914 it was decided to follow the French pattern and adopt a roundel in national colours, but in reverse order to the French.

Meanwhile, the RNAS tried using a red ring with a white centre which didn't look like the German markings, but was the same as the markings of the neutral Danes. The RNAS then slowly adopted the RFC-type three colour roundel, with it becoming standard in 1915.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

[Stephen Nulty]

... anything with roundels was one of ours.

Mick

Sounds like something even I would understand

...it was found that Allied soldiers were prone to firing at all overflying aircraft, perhaps to be "on the safe side"

Sounds like my granddad alright

Thanks, Gareth & Mick, for the informative answers.

[SiegeGunner]

On 29 October 1914 it was decided to follow the French pattern and adopt a roundel in national colours, but in reverse order to the French.

And the French for a 'roundel' is 'cocarde', which also translates as 'cockade'.

Mick

[helpjpl]

On 22/09/2006 at 13:02, Stephen Nulty said:

 

It briefly relates that one of the first casualties from the college was Captain Theodore Crean (26/10/1914) of the Northamptonshire Regt., attached to RFC.

Speaking of Crean, it states “…whose aircraft was brought down by the rifle fire of our own men. The Tommies had mistaken the Union Flag wing markings for the enemy Maltese Cross, and Theodore Crean’s misfortune encouraged the introduction of the famous roundel markings”.

 

This from the War Diary of 2nd Battalion Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment, 26 October 1914:

After remaining at the crossroads [West of Gheluvelt] several hours the Battn. was ordered to advance parallel to and South of the Gheluvelt Road and came under a heavy shell fire - after proceeding about a mile, they were ordered to retire to a position in front of the Gheluvelt-Zandvoorde Road and entrench.

About this time a pitiable incident was witnessed by the Battalion - one of our aeroplanes  which had been circling above us for some time was suddenly fired on by some unit in rear - the aeroplane caught fire and the two aviators were thrown out and killed.

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?war=1&servedIn=Air%2Bforce&exactDate=26-10-1914

 

JP

[grantmal]

Another bump.....

2/Lt Synge of the 3rd Coldstream Guards remarked upon this incident (assumed) in his diary (26 October 1914):

'.....About noon the Battalion marched into the wood and after waiting about an hour was moved back into the open again. It was then that I saw a most awful sight. One of our aeroplanes was flying just above so low that we could easily see the Union Jacks on the lower plane with the naked eye. She was dropping smoke balls to give the line to our artillery. A Highland regiment bivouacked in the next field to ours evidently mistook this for a German aeroplane (their shape is quite distinctive) dropping smoke balls to give the range to their guns; acting on this supposition the whole battalion fired volleys at the machine, which at that height was an easy target, and in a few seconds the aeroplane burst into a sheet of flame and crashed to the ground, one of the officers falling, or jumping, out as it fell.'

From Synge's description it would seem both occupants were killed, but Captain Theodore Crean is the only RFC casualty on this day according to the CWGC.

edit: Lt Cyril Gordon HOSKING, 4 Squadron RFC, was the other occupant of the aircraft killed in this incident.

Edited 21 November , 2022 by grantmal
spelling

[alex revell]

The loss of Crean  and Hoskin and the roundels question is covered by my book Baptism of Fire. The Royal Flying Corps at War The First Year in France 1914-1915. Available from Wickford Books or the C& C International bookshop. Excepts attached

 

[grantmal]

Thanks Alex, for that extra info.

The 3rd Coldstream war diary places the battalion east of Hooge chateau, just north of Veldhoek, when Hosking & Crean flew low over them.... was it the 4 Squadron diary that mentions Poperinghe as the location?

[alex revell]

No. I don't think so. It's not in my biblio. Probably from one of the memoirs I used.

Cheers

[FionaBam]

On 21/11/2022 at 11:08, alex revell said:

The loss of Crean  and Hoskin and the roundels question is covered by my book Baptism of Fire. The Royal Flying Corps at War The First Year in France 1914-1915. Available from Wickford Books or the C& C International bookshop. Excepts attached

 

Hi Alex

 

Picking up that you are an expert on the RFC-

My grandfather Frederick Edward Arthur Bambridge was , according to his ADM record also written on his service record sent to the RNAS in Dec 1917 when he joined RNAS 2 Squadron , in the RFC as an Observer January 1916 to April 1916 seconded from the 6th Wiltshire regiment rank 2nd Lieutenant 

Seeing as parts of his Army records  in WO339 series at NA Kew were "Destroyed in 1932" (written on Index page of his file) I am desperately seeking where else his RFC service might be recorded.

Am after his RFC Squadron number so I can research further . His actions there would be so interesting to know about . 

Cheeky of me to persue you here as you may have seen my post on GWF already.

Thank you 

Regards 

Fiona