Senegar POW camp

[Ryegate]

Hello Steve and all

You have been very busy on my behalf and I thank you for your generosity and continued help. It seems you may be very close to identifying my man!

I am not sure how to attach the medal card page but the qualifying date for both 8711 and 8377 is 22/08/1914.

8377 received the Victory medal B/103 B2 188 and the British War Medal under the same reference. The 15 star is B4 125. The card is marked with P of War.

8711 Received the Victory medal B/103 B3 198, the British War medal under the same reference and the 14 Star under reference B4 125. The card is marked with AS/B/2243.

The other 2 cards are 7735, qualifying date 28/08/1914. The Victory medal is referenced B/103 B2 170. The British War medal under the same reference and the 14 Star under reference B4 125. The card is marked with Discharged.

Soldier 29740 has no qualifying date. He received 2 medals. The Victory under reference A/101B14 2225 and the British War medal under the same reference. There are no other marks on this card.

Just noted the last number of these references refer to the page number.

Once again, many thanks for your help. I am very grateful

Regards

Maureen

[Stebie9173]

It looks like all three of 8377, 8711 and 7735 are 1st battalion men, 8377 and 8711 being in the initial contingent of the 1st Bn. when they accompanied 4th Division to France. This occured slightly after the first wave of the British Army went overseas c.15th August 1914. The British Army (consisting of I Corps under Haig and II Corps under Smith-Dorrien) advanced to Mons before the battle of Mons on 23rd August 1914 and then began the retreat. 4th Division then joined II Corps just prior to the battle of Le Cateau on 26th August 1914. The battle of Le Cateau occured in the area of the road between Le Cateau and Cambrai with 5th Division on the right near Le Cateau itself and 4th Division on the left of the battle lines near Cambrai. As the battle unfolded, the Germans were held up for a long while before finally outflanking the British lines on the (British) right. Many of the men on the right including hundreds of the 2nd KOYLI and 2nd Suffolks were taken POW. 4th Division was able to disengage a bit more easily but in the confusion surrounding any withdrawal groups men would have been isolated and captured.

7735 looks like he was sent over to France straight after the battle of Le Cateau to strengthen the depleted 1st battalion after the battle of the 26th August.

(All three of these men should have 1914 Stars - I assume that either 8377's MIC has an error or that you meant to put 1914 Star and put 1915...)

Le Cateau is one of three options for the wounding/capture of 8711 and 8377. The other two options are the Battle of the Marne, 7-10 September 1914 ( http://www.1914-1918.net/bat3.htm ) and the battle of the Aisne, 12-15 September 1914 ( http://www.1914-1918.net/bat4.htm ).

29740 really does strike me as a much later enlistment (1916+ probably). I would suggest that this J. Weir is a 95% (or more) No, providing that we are sure that the man reported in the 1914 papers as serving and captured refers to your John Weir.

Steve.

[Ryegate]

Just to provide an estimated date of enlistment, I have had a quick look at the WO364 "Pension" Records on Ancestry.

8476 Thomas Best, of Antrim enlisted into the Royal Irish Fusiliers at Armagh on 8th July 1904. So, 8377 would have possibly been earlier in 1904, and 8711 in 1905/1906.

Steve.

Hi Steve

I posted a reply to your recent messages, first thing this morning. Have no idea where it has gone to! Out there in cyber space somewhere as it definitely did not turn up here! Still a novice I'm afraid.

Anyway, the gist of what I wrote earlier is that the qualifying date for 8377 was the 22/08/1914. This John Weir was awarded the Victory medal with reference B/103 B2 page 188. The British War medal with the same reference and the 15 Star with reference B4 page 125. His card is marked with P of War.

Qualifying date for 8711 was also 22/08/1914. This John Weir was awarded Victory medal with reference B/103 B3 page 198. The British War medal with same reference and the 14 Star with reference B4 page 125. This card is marked with AS/B/2243

For Private 7735 the qualifying date was 27 or 28/08/1914. He was awarded the Victory medal reference B/103 B2 page 170. The British War medal with same reference and the 14 Star with reference B4 page 125. His card is marked 'Discharged'

John Weir 29740 has no qualifying date. He was awarded the Victory medal reference A/101 B14 page 2225 and the British War medal, same reference. There are no other marks on his card.

Since writing my post to you this morning I have been surprised with an unexpected holiday that starts tomorrow. Just when I thought we were getting very close to finding my John Weir (well, you getting close to finding him for me, I should say!).

Anyway, please, please do not give up on me while I am away because I will be unable to respond to any further messages and I am hoping you will not lose interest in the interim!

Thank you so much for your generosity and your continued help with this. It is very much appreciated.

Lets hope this response makes it to the right place this time. I wonder where the other one went to?!!

Best regards

Maureen

[Ryegate]

Hello Steve

One last message before I have to go pack!

Thank you for the wonderful account of the battle and consequences that my John Weir could have been part of.

The medal card definitely says 15 Star B4 125 This is for private 8377. The card marked P of War.

The report in the paper at that time certainly seems plausible because I know for sure that John Weir was living in Springwell Street when he married Mary McCluskey and that she was living in Galgorm Street. They married Christmas Day 1913. They had their first child Sept 1914 and The second child followed in Feb 1920. Their first child was born in Galgorm Street. The second born in Cheshire England, so maybe that is where John was sent (for some reason) once he was released and sent home. I have often wondered why their second child was born in England. Is this possible, that he would have been sent to cheshire?

You are so tantalisingly close to identifying my John Weir! thank you for your continued support and for the time it has taken you to look all this up for me. I am very grateful and would say I hope to help you out one day, but that would be unrealistic as you already know far more than I do about this so my help would be extremely limited!

Best regards

Maureen

[Desmond7]

Just a little addition:-

You would be STAGGERED by the number of men from Galgorm Street who fought in the Great War. The Street is perhaps 150 yards long and runs from Linenhall Street in the town to Waveney Road. See goog map

[Ryegate]

Hello Desmond 7

thank you for the map showing Galgorm Street. Amazing isn't it that so many men from such a short street would have fought in WW1. Only consolation for those left behind I guess, was that they were all in the same boat and hopefully were able to support each other. I'm sure they did.

I am hoping though that there would have been only one John Weir from Galgorm Street which will make my chances of finding him very good provided I can find some document that holds his service number and address!

Regards

Maureen

[Ryegate]

Hello All

Does anyone have any photographs of Sennelager?

When looking at the list of POW camps in Germany, Sennelager is not listed but does it come under some other name?

Does anyone have a photograph with my JOhn Weir on it?

Here's hopeful................but not that hopeful!!

Regards

[Doug Johnson]

Senne is the name of the camps, lager just means camp. The four camps are named I to IV eg Senne I. III is also called Waldmühle and IV, located some three miles from the others is also called Staumühle. Sennelager also describes the pre war German military camp and training ground in the same location.

For an interesting read on Senne during the early part of the war see "Sixteen Months in Four German Prisons" by Henry C Mahoney, free on the internet via the Gutenberg project.

The above plan was drawn by a returning prisoner in 1915.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Some pics;

The first is French prisoners building the camps and the second is a Belgian in Senne I.

Doug

[delta]

I would imagine that (using the map above and the attached photo) quite a few pals can identify the location of the Camps in relation to the British Army's Sennelager Training Centre.

[Ryegate]

Good morning Delta

Thank you so much for the drawn plan and the photographs of Sennelager. I wasn't really expecting anything back to my request so I am delighted, thank you.

It seems that whatever the request, a Forum member will have the answer and is so generous in sharing it with a novice like myself.

Regards

Maureen

[delta]

Maureen - glad to help; I have marched or driven past the former POW camp sites on many occasions

In fact I have probably camped on the site of the old English camp (will have to check my old map book)

Stephen

[Ryegate]

Ah, so that's why you have such an avid interest in this!

A soldier, no less.

It must be a very strange feeling to camp on the very site where POWs were held. A mix of emotions I would expect.

Anyway, thank you for your kindness in sharing your information with me.

I am hoping that before very long I will have identified my John Weir's service number and then I can look up any available records at Kew.

Regards

Maureen

[Ryegate]

Hi

I have today received a few details on John Weir, regiment number 8377 from the very kind lady who is curator at the Fusiliers Museum.

He is listed at being imprisoned at Limburg although the Ballymena Times has him in Sennelager.

I am very ignorant of these things but am trying to increase my knowledge by reading lots of postings on this Forum, but is Limburg anything to do with Sennelager?

Would he have been moved from Senne to Limburg?

Limburg is in the Netherlands is it not? Would he possibly have been on his way home?

So many questions!

Please help as I am eager for any information about him. I already have all the wonderful stuff in response to my previous requests but I didn't realise at the time that he was at Limburg and not Sennelager.

Regards

[delta]

The Netherlands was neutral during the Great War; I understand that soem british troops were interned who found their way to the Netherlands

As you say, hwiever, he could have been at Limburg on his way home

Stephen

[Ryegate]

OK, thanks Delta.

I want to relay all of this great information to John's surviving son and daughter so I wanted to make it as accurate as possible as they know nothing at all about him (sad).

If I say he was initially at Sennelager and was in Limburg on his way home, that would be about as accurate as I can get.

Regards

[Doug Johnson]

If I say he was initially at Sennelager and was in Limburg on his way home, that would be about as accurate as I can get.[/quote

No. There is a lot more to it. He would have been at Senne then transferred to Limburg (not in Holland) around the end of 1914 as nearly all irish prisoners were. Initially Limburg was a political camp and the treatment of the Irish transferred there was excellent. Roger Casement then tried to recruit men for the Irish Brigade, eventually recruiting a mere 32 men, most of whom only joined to get out of work etc. The failure to recruit the men led to them being treated worse than other prisoners. The treatment was very bad and three ended up being shot in separate incidents. The Irish Brigade then dissapeared and initial responses from the German Government over their fate were that they had been released. However they were eventually found in a camp near Berlin.

Doug

[Ryegate]

Hi Doug

Thank you so much for the explanation. Can you tell me then, is Limburg the name of POW camp in Germany?

Limburg (the place) is in the Netherlands is it not?

I know he started off in Sennelager as his wife had a postcard to say he was held there (Ballymena Guardian).

But I now have a list of POWs that record him as being held at Limburg.

Confusing? Yes for us novices!

Would you kindly help me again?

Cheers

Regards

[Desmond7]

Ballymena Observer - the Ballymena Guardian did not exist until 1970 ish.

As someone who started their career on the Ballymena Observer, I am rather attached to the old girl. The Ballymena TIMES is the descendant paper.

[Doug Johnson]

Limburg is still very much in Germany. It was a head camp, a status which it took over from Wahn. A photograph is here Limburg photo. Limburg have a varied career as a camp. From failed political or propaganda camp it became a registation camp for a very large number of PoWs held behind the lines. It also suffered a TB epidemic as a result of failures in the administration. Even the american Embassy was unable to change the attitude of the administration and the epidemic went unchecked. This TB epidemic was mainly amongst the Irish and may have been the cause of Pte Weir's death (is the cause of death known?).

Doug

[Ryegate]

Doug, thank you for your response.

The Ballymena Guardian states he is missing and then in the same month that he is being held in Sennelager. So I suppose I can safely assume then, that at some stage he was transferred to Limburg.

I have been told by my mother in law (she was married to one of John's sons) that John never recovered from that experience so the TB could be a very likely cause of his bad health on his return to home.

I am registered with Emerald Ancestry in the hope that one day as they add more records to their database, I will find his death certificate. But at the moment, I do not have it. I have had a researcher in Ireland doing a fair bit of searching for me but I still don't have his death record unfortunately.

I am told by the curator of the Fusiliers Museum that in her belief he would have been eligible for a pension but his record does not appear on Ancestry and I found nothing at Kew when I visited. Although, I did not realise at the time, that you need to search through two lots of records. So I have very little information about him, sadly.

Still, I am lucky to have the information I do have and it has all come from Forum Members and the Curator of the Fusiliers Museum. And another trip to Kew must be on the cards!

regards