Mark A Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Hi there everyone- hope you're all well. Can anyone out there give me a quick ranking of British medals for valour? I was interested to see the British soldier who won the George Cross for actions in Iraq (and was awarded it last week- he looked pretty bewildered by all the attention). Without sounding to crude about it, where does that medal rank vis a vis the Victoria Cross etc? Cheers! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Mark, Had it not been a blue on blue engagement the young Trooper would, probably, have been considered for the VC. Saying that however the last two VCs (Lt Col H Jones & Sgt I McKay) were postumously awarded and there is a reticence in certain quarters in this country today to consider awarding the VC to UK soldiers unless they are killed in the act. There was a rumour last year that 2 SAS men had been recommended for the VC, but this proved to be unfounded (Or was it?) Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 The Order of Precedence for gallantry awards is - VC, GC, DSO, IOM (Mil), CGC, RRC.I, DSC, MC, DFC, AFC, RRC.II, DCM, CGM, GM, DSM, MM, DFM, AFM, QGM & BEM. (not all still awarded). That is not a complete list as it leaves out some colonial and police gallantry awards as well as some awards now replaced (e.g. EGM, Edward & Albert Medals) The VC outranks the GC in the Order of Precedence despite the GC being the highest gallantry award for a civilian or for military personnel who are not 'in the face of the enemy'. (I have always thought it unfair that bomb disposal or resistance in a PoW camp does not count as 'in the face of the enemy'!!). The reality is that both the VC & GC are the pinnacle of achievement and the precedence between the two would really only matter if someone was awarded both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 4 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Thanks for that chaps- you've satisfied my curiosity! It was a slightly more positive news story for the army in what is a pretty much a negative area for them at the moment- if you see what I mean. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Mark - It is really negative for the politicians not the army as they didn't decide to go and invade Iraq! However before I get too political............... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 4 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Hmm, yeah, but the two are bound together I think. Victory parades (or lack thereof), medals, tales of heroism- they'll have some element of political calculation behind them. I don't think that's a cynical thought at all (not that you were accusing me of that Ian by the way!), just the reality. It was good to hear of these medals being awarded (albeit the stories behind them are sobering and grim) when all we hear from Iraq is bad news. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 There was a rumour last year that 2 SAS men had been recommended for the VC, but this proved to be unfounded (Or was it?) I know of at least one case in Northern Ireland where a soldier was recommended for the VC. This was "commuted" down to the MM on the grounds that the publicity surrounding such an award would have compromised his security. This guy wasn't SAS but worked for intelligence. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 (I have always thought it unfair that bomb disposal ... does not count as 'in the face of the enemy'!!). ...especially seeing as it does when applying for a (WW2) "wound stripe" in the event of injury. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BryanShanks Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Mark, Surely the only medal awarded for valour is The Victoria Cross. The George Cross is awarded for gallantry. Criteria "Reward for heroism for civilians, both men and women; also to members of the Armed Forces, when the instance does not earn or where the situation does not warant a military award. The George Cross was only to be awarded where the most conspicuous courage was shown and where the recipient himself was in extreme danger." Country of issue: UK Date of institution: September 1940 Recipients of The Empire Gallantry Medal were allowed to exchange for The George Cross. Between 1940 and 1947 105 George Crosses were awarded. Since then approximately 60 more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BryanShanks Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Mark, Ref my last posting. Delete warant - insert warrant. Sorry. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Recipients of the Albert Medal and the Edward Medal were also later allowed to exchange their medals for the GC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 5 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Did anyone see Jeremy Clarkson's program about the VC last night? Had some interesting (if general) points about the kind of person who has won them. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Yes - a beautiful twist at the end. I spent the entire programme wondering what Jeremy Clarkson was doing fronting a presentation such as that one. Not many people's obvious choice, I would suggest. I was entirely wrong-footed in the last 30 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 5 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Yeah, absolutely. Incredible the daughter never knew! I was so impressed by the VC winner's modesty. That twist summed it up really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Interesting about Cain's daughter. I was at school with his son and he was certainly aware of his father's VC. Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 So the son knew that Dad had a VC - but his daughter didn't. What can one say about the state of communications in a family where that can happen? Hmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 I thought it was generally a good programme although occasionally the research let it down-the explanation of Operation 'Market Garden' was very inaccurate and confused at times. I'm not the biggest fan of Jeremy Clarkson, but I thought he did a pretty decent job. The 'twist' didn't work for me as I already knew that he was Cain's son-in-law. I found the bit about the daughter not knowing very difficult to believe but there's nowt so queer as folk... I'm amazed that Noel Chavasse didn't warrant a mention, although the programme did concentrate on more recent/living recipients. As far as I can recall only one Great War VC was described-the RAF pilot in 1918. It's also a bit surprising that he didn't mention that the South Staffords won two VCs at Arnhem. As a parlour game of the kind beloved on this forum, which VCs would Pals choose for a follow-up programme concentarting on the Great War? I nominate the Reverend Theodore Bayley-Hardy as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 5 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2003 I'd go for Noel Gordon Chavasse. He won a bar to his Victoria Cross I think. I know he won a VC at Guillemont and then a bar to it in Belgium- I think! Perhaps somebody else knows. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shaw Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 The following group was sold at Spinks auction today and raised £155,000 (excluding buyers premium) Great War Victoria Cross, D.S.O., M.C. and Bar Group of Twelve to Major General D.M.W. Beak, South Lancashire Regiment, Late Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, Commander, Drake Battalion, Royal Naval Division. His citation reads V.C. London Gazette 15.11.1918 T/Commander D.M.W. Beak, D.S.O., M.C., Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, 'For most conspicuous bravery, courageous leadership and devotion to duty during a prolonged period of operations. He led his men in attack, and, despite heavy machine-gun fire, four enemy positions were captured. His skilful and fearless leadership resulted in the complete success of this operation and enabled other battalions to reach their objectives. Four days later, though dazed by a shell fragment, in the absence of the brigade commander, he reorganized the whole brigade under extremely heavy gun fire, and led his men with splendid courage to their objective. An attack having been held up, he rushed forward, accompanied by only one runner, and succeeded in breaking up a nest of machine guns, personally bringing back nine or ten prisoners. His fearless example instilled courage and confidence into his men, who then quickly resumed the advance under his leadership. On a subsequent occasion he displayed great courage and powers of leadership in attack, and his initiative, coupled with the confidence with which he inspired all ranks, not only enabled his own and a neighbouring unit to advance, but contributed very materially to the success of the Naval Division in these operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 As a parlour game of the kind beloved on this forum, which VCs would Pals choose for a follow-up programme concentarting on the Great War? I nominate the Reverend Theodore Bayley-Hardy as one. My nomination goes to Adrian Carton de Wiart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gordon Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 I have always considered it a pity that no comparable award to the GC and the GM existed in WW1. I know of a case where, during bombing training, an Officer deliberately flung himself onto a "wild" grenade to save his men. There were many awards to those in France for deeds commited in battle (and deservedly so) but nothing at all for this fellow who, in my opinion, committed an act of unbelievabe "cold" courage. Regards Jim Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 My nomination is Sergeant Bill Gregg 13/Rifle Brigade (28th June 1918) Small man, huge heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Yes, it would have to be Chevasse double VC for me. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 As to Jim's post - There was an indirect parallel award for such actions as he describes; firstly, the Albert Medal (Land) was awarded on a number of occasions such as he describes. The Albert Medal, two classes 'First', in gold 'Second' in Bronze, two divisions 'Sea' and 'Land'. Pic attached of the AM (Land) - but it appears to be a 2nd Class with a 1st Class ribbon. (The 2nd Class had narrower stripes) 2/Lt Harry Thorner of the MGC was awarded the AM (Land, 1st Class) for throwing himself on a grenade in a training accident; it was posthumous. The Meritorious Service Medal was also used later in the war for gallantry not in the face of the enemy, and a number of (non fatal) grenade accidents attracted http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/gallantry.htm This link has a very useful listing of gallantry precedence. Couple of things to get off my chest... The GC is not 'outranked' by the VC.. it exists as a parallel. Admittedly, if anyone got a VC AND a GC, the VC would be worn first. But it is intended to be held in equal esteem for civilian/not in action gallantry. Oh, and this issue of 'best VC'.. there should be no such thing. They're all equal. Thought Clarkson did very well, despite mangling some of the history (no, the Germans did not know exactly where 2nd South Staffs were going to land and when...) and the occasional overstepped 'witticism'. And having been privilieged enough to meet Flt Lt John Cruickshank, to see that 'rider' added by the Secretary of State about self preservation nearly made my blood boil. My goodness he EARNED that award. Whilst I'm dropping names like confetti.. I was at school with the grandson of Sgt AE Knight VC MBE of the 8th Londons (PO Rifles), VC for St Julien, 3rd Ypres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Staffs I did not mean in my earlier posting to suggest in any way the the GC was inferior to the VC - merely that, in the official Order of Precedence as issued by the Central Chancery of the Orders of Knighthood, it comes as second in the list after the VC. As we both have said, this is academic unless someone ever is awarded both - unlikely, but I suppose they also said that about the chances of anyone getting two VCs! As a matter of interest the Chancery revised the Order of Precedence as recently as 17 March 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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