Scottish battalions

[PPCLI]

My query relates to the number of men who make up the pipes and drums section of a Scottish battalion (including the Tyneside, London, etc Scottish units)

I have been compiling a nominal roll for a battalion on its embarkation for Gallipoli and have been able to assign a few appointments (not sure if that is the correct term) to some soldiers, e.g., Shoemaker, Orderly Room and Transport Sergeants.

Through newspaper articles/photos I have also been able to identify the names of a few pipers, but am not sure how many more I need to find before I have the full complement. Could anyone tell me, at full battalion strength how many pipers and drummers (and buglers) would be present in a Scottish battalion? And (as an afterthought) like the bandsmen in other British units, was the role of the pipes and drums section to act as stretcher bearers?

Cheers,

Stuart

[CSMMo]

Stuart,

In the TF Mountain Artillery Brigade I am researching (see below), the pipers and drummers were primarily gunners but all had regular duties in the Brigade. Their duties providing the pipes & drums was an additional duty which was highly prized. The Pipe Major was a Corporal who was killed in action at at his gun in Gallipoli. They had to leave their pipes and drums home when they joined the 29th Division and departed for Gallipoli, so there was a continuous marathon concert in June when the father of one of the officers sent a set of pipes to them. I wonder what the Turks thought?

Mike Morrison

[Ian Riley]

The 1914 Four Company War Establishment shows for every battalion of infantry one sergeant drummer for the battalion and four drummers or buglers in each of the four companies. I think that the majority of drummers would be trained to use the bugle (though I am not sure what the position might be in Light Infantry Regiments - a drum might be a bit tricky at 140 paces to the minute - but that's nothing to do with pipers).

There is a special remark in the War Establishment to say that battalions which have an authorized peacetime establishment of pipers will have one serjeant-piper and five pipers in addition.

Members of the pipes and drums (the pees and dees written as P&Ds) are generally soldiers for duty rather than stretcher bearers and a piper would generally be allocated to a company. They certainly have a fighting role in the army today and have always been a breed apart from the Mil Band. I have seen somewhere that they were often a husbanded resource (kept back from the front line) as they were important to the morale of the battalion. Nevertheless, they tended to appear at critical moments in the front line eg Piper Laidlaw

http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/bblaidla.htm

A temporary link takes you to a photo of the Balck Watch at Longueval

http://www.stamps-auction.com/ww1-war-old-...d-for-sale-5944

though this sparkling postcard looks as though it was bought at Thiepval last week for 40 cents rather than having been kept in some jock's sporran for the duration

The war establishment makes no mention of employment as stretcher bearers (and it does so specifically for the Military Band) and I have no experience of them having been so employed.

If you want, I'll count up the numbers of pipers and drummers in the |Liverpool Scottish (2nd Battalion) 1916 band photo for you tomorrow (if I can find it!). I suspect that pipers were added unofficially to the P&Ds if the talent was in the battalion.

[PPCLI]

Thank you both for your replies.

Ian - I was tending to the view that pipers were not stretcher bearers, but I thought I would mention it in the hope that someone would be able to confirm or otherwise. A head count of the photo you mentioned would be good - one of the reasons that I ask is that I have seen a photo of a 2nd line territorial battalion in 1916 with 16 pipers and 10 drums, and another of a battalion marching into Germany in Dec 1918 with 12 pipers leading the way.

Mike - It's a bit of a coincidence you replying tonight. I must have read another of your posts about the Mountain Artillery Brigade and last night while going through an old newspaper I stumbled across an obituary:

Cuthbertson - On the 28th June, killed in action at the Dardanelles, Gunner George Andrew Cuthbertson, aged 22 years, Bute Mountain Battery, R.G.A., 1/4th Highland Mountain Brigade, elder son of Andrew Cuthbertson, 14, Boyd Street, Largs, Ayrshire, and grandson of Mrs Cuthbertson, New Galloway.

The address is different to that on the CWGC, his parents must have moved at some point after he was killed.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Ian Riley]

Stuart,

I have just left this page on the forum The Piper in No Man's Land with a picture of the Tyneside Scottish P&Ds

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...st&p=512154

I'll ask our curator at the Liverpool Scottish Museum if he knows of any pipers who became stretcher bearers but I think the answer is none; Captain Chavasse recruited his SBs from elsewhere

Ian

[CSMMo]

Stuart,

Thanks for that. Do you recall the name of the newspaper? This is a photo of the Bute Mountain Battery Pipes & Drums in Bedford, 1914.

Mike Morrison

[Tom A McCluskey]

Stuart,

The Break down of 4/5th Bn The Black Watch before the attack at Ypres on the 31 Jul 1917. You can see, roughly, the amount in the pipe band and their employment.

4 / 5th Bn. The Black Watch.

BATTALION STATE. 31 st July, 1917

A. Detached, vide A.F.B. 213 … … … 185

Total 185

B. Training personnel left out 54

H.Q. Administrative details,

Transport & Q.M’s branch 104

Caretakers posts … 7

Servants to 7 officers … 5

Total 170

C. In the battle but not in the

Fighting ranks of the Battalion:

Bearers … … … 17

Attached to M.G.C. & T.M.B … 36

Servants of officers detached … 4

Bde. Communication service … 13

Pipe band & cooks (carriers for

Front line) … … … 24

Total 94

D. Battalion H.Q. … … 10

M.O.’s party (stretcher bearers) … 34

Battalion communication service ... 105

Total 149

E. 4 Coy. H.Q. … … 15

16 Platoons … … 348

Total 363

Average strength of platoons is 21.8

Officers with Battalion:

H.Q. – C.O., Adjt., Sigs.O., I.O … … … … 4

Coy. – Coy commander & 3 … … … … 16

G. McL. SCEALES, Lieut. Col.

Commanding 4/5 th Bn. The Black Watch

hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[Ian Riley]

Ian - I was tending to the view that pipers were not stretcher bearers, but I thought I would mention it in the hope that someone would be able to confirm or otherwise. A head count of the photo you mentioned would be good - one of the reasons that I ask is that I have seen a photo of a 2nd line territorial battalion in 1916 with 16 pipers and 10 drums, and another of a battalion marching into Germany in Dec 1918 with 12 pipers leading the way.

2/10th (Scottish) Bn King's (Liverpool Regiment) P&Ds pictured in November 1916 (they went to F&F in February 1917) shows one pipe major (assumed to be a Serjeant) and five pipers (the correct number on the basis of the 1914 Expeditionary Force establishment) and fourteen drummers (including the man on the big bass drum and most seem to be equipped with their bugle - this is against a 1914 WE for drums of one sjt and sixteen). There is no immediately visible sign of the drum sergeant; maybe he was holding the camera - I joke as this seems to be a highly posed picture that is part of a series the battalion has had taken.

Pictures taken of the 1/10th Bn in 1919 at Antwerp, where they were on administartive and ceremonial duties (eg Captain Fryatt's funeral procession), show rather more pipers (about eight I think) but only about eight or so drummers and the military band behind that.

Ian

[PPCLI]

Just a quick message to say thanks for all your help - I am away from home at the moment, so will reply properly when I get back.

Cheers,

Stuart

[PPCLI]

Now back from my travels.

Thanks again for all your help. So, it looks like that officially there was one Pipe-Major and 5 Pipers. The battalion nominal roll I am compiling includes 14 pipers who landed at Gallipoli. I have identified them through newspaper reports, photos and official casualty lists. Only one is a Sergeant, so I take it that he will be the Pipe-Major?

I suppose I am now left wondering whether the 'surplus' 8 pipers were over there as pipers in kilts or as rank and file in trews. The way in which newspaper reports referred to them would probably have been dependant on the info supplied from relatives. So, if their son was a pre-war territorial piper then he would be named as a piper. However, with 8 companies per battalion pre-war there would definitely have been an over-abundance of pipers, so maybe some of them had to go overseas as 'ordinary' privates - I wonder if they took their pipes with them?

As a slight aside - does anyone know what sources are used by this site PipersMemorial to identify pipers? (n.b. this is a very slow site - have to wait for adverts to finish before hyperlinks become active).

Cheers,

Stuart

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Which battalion are you interested in, I have some lists of pipers listed by Battalions. It also gives an idea of there duties within each battalion, as each battalion used them in different rolls.

Regards

Stewart

[PPCLI]

Which battalion are you interested in,

Hi Stewart,

5th (D&G) KOSB, but I would also be interested in any of the other KOSB battalions, and their duties.

Thanks,

Stuart

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Don't have a massive amount of info on the 5th Bn. This is taken from Seton&Grant's The Pipes of War-

In Gallipoli the pipers were mostly employed as Stretcher-bearers, and nearly all of them became casualties.

1163 L/Sgt. Porter,

1333 Cpl J. Priestly [w. 12-7-15],

544 Piper A. Erskine [congratulated on Bravery,MID],

686 Piper R T Arrall [w. 22-6-15],

308 Piper R. Brown [k. 12-7-15],

833 Piper J. Clint,

1760 Piper T.E. Martin [k. 12-7-15],

1762 Piper H.C. Burnett [w. 30-6-15],

995 Piper J.Dickson,

556 Piper J Erskine,

1489 Piper J Jackson,

1622 Piper D. McMinn,

799 Piper M. Stewart [w. 12-7-15],

1377 Piper D. Wilson [w. 12-7-15],

Piper Jas. Gorman [k.]

Hope this is some help,

Regards,

Stewart

[PPCLI]

Hope this is some help

It certainly is. All the men apart from 556 J. Erskine are on my list for Gallipoli - perhaps there has been some confusion between his initial and number? Of the rest, Porter, Clint, Dickson, Jackson and McMinn are new to me as pipers. So, definitely very helpful, and the specific dates of wounding for Ancell and Brown are an added bonus. I have added my (conflicting) information to your list (along with names) in case you may find it useful.

1163 L/Sgt. Porter - no. 1165 (William)

1333 Cpl J. Priestly [w. 12-7-15], - Priestley (John)

544 Piper A. Erskine [congratulated on Bravery,MID] - no. 556 (Alexander)

686 Piper R T Arrall [w. 22-6-15] - Ancell (Richard)

308 Piper R. Brown [k. 12-7-15] - (Robert)

833 Piper J. Clint - (John)

1760 Piper T.E. Martin [k. 12-7-15] - (Thomas)

1762 Piper H.C. Burnett [w. 30-6-15] - (Herbert Calvert)

995 Piper J. Dickson - (James)

556 Piper J. Erskine - should be Alexander, see above

1489 Piper J. Jackson - (James)

1622 Piper D. McMinn - wrong initial (Walter), received MM for gallant behaviour at El Jib

799 Piper M. Stewart [w. 12-7-15] - (Murdo)

1377 Piper D. Wilson [w. 12-7-15] - (David)

Piper Jas. Gorman [k.] - no. 2144, kia 9.12.15

It is interesting that you mention that in Gallipoli the pipers were mostly employed as stretcher-bearers - do the authors give any more detail about how they came to this conclusion?

Thanks again. This additional info has been a bit of an unexpected bonus. Just shows, the info is out there if only you know where to look!

Stuart

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Thanks for the up dated list. Seton and Grant were in correspondence with CO's, Pipe presidents and Pipe Majors of most of the units in the commonwealth armies which had pipebands, during the war. Really they seemed to base thier nominal rolls on what these people had time to send them, plus what ever they found in the papers etc. I understand they were also personal friends of many of the leading pipers at that time.

There book was published in 1920. The info on each battalion and there pipers would have come from the CO's or PM's of those battalions, so that is how they would have known wht the pipers of each were employed as.

Are there any other battalions you are interested in? Do you have much info on the 1st KOSB's in Gallipoli?

Regards,

Stewart

[jamiemcginlay]

Just in case anyone is researching into pipers and its of any use I checked my database on Scottish war memorials and so far I've recorded the following pipers:

McFarlane George Larbert Falkirk Black Watch Pipe Major

Planner Leonard Denny Falkirk Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders Piper

Forbes Atholl Aberfeldy Stirlingshire Black Watch Piper

Campbell Archibald Aberfeldy Stirlingshire Black Watch Piper Died after 1919

McKinnon Archibald Braco Perthshire Cameron Highlanders Piper

Richardson James Rutherglen City of Glasgow Canadians Piper Victoria Cross

Grant R. Chapel of Garrioch Gordon Gordon Highlanders Piper

Graham Alexander Motherwell Lanarkshire Scottish Rifles Piper

Anderson C.A.M. Larkhall Hamilton Seaforth Highlanders Piper

Watson Ernest Motherwell Lanarkshire Seaforth Highlanders Piper

Fraser Donald Laggan Strathspey Seaforth Highlanders Piper

Thomson Peter Dumbarton Dunbartonshire Piper

McKenzie Colin Leuchars Fife Piper

and drummers:

Gemmell George Rutherglen City of Glasgow Black Watch Drummer

Bullion George G. Wellbank Dundee Black Watch Drummer

Grerar John Wellbank Dundee Cameron Highlanders Drummer

Bullion George Murroes Dundee Royal Highlanders Drummer

MacDonald David Inverness Invernesshire Drummer

MacGuire Joseph Inverness Invernesshire Drummer

MacLeod Kenneth Inverness Invernesshire Drummer

Robertson Hugh Inverness Invernesshire Drummer

Shaw William M. Inverness Invernesshire Drummer

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Thanks for the list, it's great that you have added a bit of info on the drummers, they are very often overlooked.

Regards,

Stewart

[PPCLI]

Are there any other battalions you are interested in? Do you have much info on the 1st KOSB's in Gallipoli?

Thanks for the help about Seton and Grant's information about the pipers' deployment - you would think that these sources would be reasonably reliable. At the moment I do not have any other battalion that I am going into quite as much depth wrt individual soldiers - one battalion is difficult and time-consuming enough. However, I am interested in the 1st KOSB in general terms because my grandfather's two elder brothers served in this battalion in Gallipoli and on the Western Front; one was discharged with wounds at the end of 1916, while the other made it through to April 1918 when the battalion held their ground while all around got pushed back during the Battle of Estaires - they were eventually surrounded and he was wounded and then taken prisoner.

Re Drummers - a good tip for finding drummers is to search DocumentsOnline with your regiment of interest and in the Other Keywords section put driver NOT service NOT artillery. This will return a number of hits for Drivers (for KOSB, 18; for Royal Highlanders, 29). From my research I think that these are Drummers where the abbreviation has been mis-transcribed as Driver. I realise that every battalion had a transport section, but none of the KOSB men who I know were in this section were ever referred to as Driver.

Hope this helps,

Stuart

[weewatty]

Hello

This is my first post on any subject ,I've been trawling through as many threads as I can to learn as much as I can about what my grandfather would have done in ww1. Private Walter McCaskill 2793 8th batt BlackWatch a drummer in the pipe band, I have a photogragh of the pipe band seated and standing outside barracks but I don't know which one. I always wondered how he had managed to survive from 1915 to 19 when he was demobbed and the information on this thread is helping me to understand that. I also have an original postcard of the band playing at Longueval which was among his possesions .It looks a bit like him behind the bass drummer but the postcard isn't clear enough, the bass drummer is certainly the same as the barrack photo the guy is big he must be about six four .There are 9 guys with bugles 10 pipers and 6 holding drumsticks or wearing drum belts including wee watty. I've no idea how to get these photos up on the forum I'm kinda new to all this tech stuff but I have a son in law who's going to show me he just doesn't know it yet anyway I hope this info has helped . bye the noo Walter

[weewatty]

My son in law 's been round today the photo of the Black Watch Band has been posted in the members gallery I wonder if anyone can identify where it was taken, hope you like them, bye the noo Walter

[aboode]

Stuart,

In the TF Mountain Artillery Brigade I am researching (see below), the pipers and drummers were primarily gunners but all had regular duties in the Brigade. Their duties providing the pipes & drums was an additional duty which was highly prized. The Pipe Major was a Corporal who was killed in action at at his gun in Gallipoli. They had to leave their pipes and drums home when they joined the 29th Division and departed for Gallipoli, so there was a continuous marathon concert in June when the father of one of the officers sent a set of pipes to them. I wonder what the Turks thought?

Mike Morrison

Mike,

do you know the name of the Pipe Major ?

Aad

[CSMMo]

Aad, I count 8 on my nominal roll of the Brigade and those are just the ones of which I am aware. There was a Pipes & Drums ensemble for each Battery (there were three) and the Brigade HQ as well as a band. Of the many photos I have of the 4th Highland Mountain Brigade, there are quite a few of the pipes and drums at various junctures in their history.

One of the pipers who died at Gallipoli is:

John Macdonald, Gunner and Piper #4403 – Died 2 June 1915 at Gallipoli..

Another is :

McNeill, William #1006 Cpl/Pipe Major - #4 on Nominal Roll – Cpl McNeill died on the Island of Imbros on 18 or 20 August 1915 and is buried at the East Mudros Military Cemetery. (Probably the same as Pipe Major William McNeill of Stonefield Cottage-Oban High School Roll of Honour) He is remembered in French Pipers Memorial Website. He was born in Kilmore, Argyllshire, and attested in Oban"". Their pipes taken away when they deployed overseas, he was one of many pipers to enjoy a set which had been mailed to Lt. William Hogarth by his father, shortly before he died.

If you have a question about a particular member of the Brigade, please feel free to ask!

Mike Morrison

[nemesis]

 

Pictured is Piper Burnetts medals  

1914-15 Star , British War and Victory Medals ,Memorial Plaque and Scroll awarded to 1762 Piper Herbert Calvert Burnett . 1/5 KOSB.

He was Born in 1879 at Canonbie ,Dumfries and resided at Langholm, he married Agnes Beattie in 1902. They had two daughters.

He enlisted in the 1/5th ( Dumfries and Galloway ) Battalion (TF ) The Kings Own Scottish Borderers  52nd ( Lowland Division ). He took part in the Dardanelles Campaign and was seriously wounded in action at Gallipoli on the 30th of June 1915.He was evacuated to Malta where he died aged 36 from his wounds on the 22nd of October 1915.

He is buried in the Pieta Military Cemetery Malta.

[nemesis]

On 07/12/2022 at 13:30, nemesis said:

 

Pictured is Piper Burnetts medals  

1914-15 Star , British War and Victory Medals ,Memorial Plaque and Scroll awarded to 1762 Piper Herbert Calvert Burnett . 1/5 KOSB.

He was Born in 1879 at Canonbie ,Dumfries and resided at Langholm, he married Agnes Beattie in 1902. They had two daughters.

He enlisted in the 1/5th ( Dumfries and Galloway ) Battalion (TF ) The Kings Own Scottish Borderers  52nd ( Lowland Division ). He took part in the Dardanelles Campaign and was seriously wounded in action at Gallipoli on the 30th of June 1915.He was evacuated to Malta where he died aged 36 from his wounds on the 22nd of October 1915.

He is buried in the Pieta Military Cemetery Malta.

Piper Burnett from Cumbria News dated 11th of November 1916

Edited 11 December , 2022 by nemesis