Gas still in the trenches

[ttd0]

Had an interesting Nuclear/Chemical & Bio Warfare lecture at TA the other night.

We were told that there is still a gas hazard in some Great War trenches, especially tunnels. Choking agents are a type of nerve agent and are heavier than air so are hard to get rid of. They are quick acting and generally lethal - supposed to smell like new mown hay.

Does anyone know if there is any truth in that is still lingers in the trenches

Tim

[Guest Pete Wood]

If you're refering to Mustard Gas, this is (correct me if I'm wrong, someone) actually a liquid.

A pool of this in the ground would, by now have broken down; water does a good job, given time.

The problem is with the huge number of intact shells containing HD, which still lie within the ground.

[MartinWills]

I think it is Phosgene that smells like new mown hay - but I might be wrong.

Traces of gas discharges/releases etc from the war will generally have seeped away or decayed though traces may still be there. The biggest problem in tunnels is most likely to be the lack of oxygen - a problem which occurs with any underground space. Gas testing is always carried out before utilities access any underground void such as electrical cable chambers or sewers. If you have seen the excellent video "One of our mines is missing" about the work that is still ongoing at Vimy you will have been aware of gas testing.

Having said that there are still hazards from gas munitions buried or uncovered on the battlefield. Livens projector drums/projectiles are not that common but would have to be treated with extreme caution - especially as they are corroding away. On the other hand it is not that uncommon to see gas shells and gas mortar shells are probably even more common. They should be treated as lethal on more than one count - they could go bang but even more worryingly they can corrode and leak lethal gases. If ever there was a case for avoiding unstable munitions on the battlefield it is exemplified by gas munitions. Avoid them like the plague.

Even when gas munitions are buried deep in thew ground there is still a potential hazard from corrosion and release of toxic chemicals into the soil. I am absolutely certain that the release of chemicals from munitions of this sort is probably the biggest hazard remaining from the war.

IF YOU SEE ANY GAS MUNITIONS - STEER CLEAR

Martin

[Paul Reed]

Mustard gas has and does remain dormant in saturated ground, untouched since the war; when the Butte de Warlencourt was cleared in the 80s, those doing the work received mustard gas burns through touching soil still poluted with it.

As gas rarely reached the deep tunnels used by the miners, I doubt you would find any there - except the Carbon Monoxide, which was a major threat during the war itself (thus the use of canaries).

[Terry_Reeves]

Non of the gases mentioned are nerve agents. Phosgene is a lung injurant. Mustard gas is a vesicant, or blistering agent. Mustard gas, known to the British as HS, was dispensed as a liquid. All other lethal CW munitions were liquid filled, which was converted into a gas from the heat of the bursting charge, or, in the case of cylinder gases, after coming into contact with air after being discharged under pressure. Nerve agents were a post- war development, and at least one, Tabun, was available to Germany by the early 1940's although it was not used.

Terry Reeves

[Jim Gordon]

A bit off thread, but in a refrigeration unit in an Electronics Lab. where I worked in the early 1950s' the cooling agent was Phosgene gas. I clearly recall the sweet scent of new-mown that that hung around the area where it stood and was never convinced that it was only harmful when inhaled while smoking. i.e. the gas had to pass over a red-hot surface to break down into some unspecified harmful substance. Certainly one chap did work in the area while smoking and he did indeed become quite ill. I wonder if there was a noticeable difference in the number of gas casualties in the War amongst men who smoked and those who didn't. However,I suppose in those days nearly all men smoked.

Regards

Jim Gordon.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Mustard gas has and does remain dormant in saturated ground, untouched since the war; when the Butte de Warlencourt was cleared in the 80s, those doing the work received mustard gas burns through touching soil still poluted with it.

Paul, my information comes from a Greenpeace advisor who I chatted to a few years ago. He told me that boiling water was one of the approved, and cheapest, methods of 'neutralising' the effects of Mustard gas.

My source went on to say that cold/rain water would work in exactly the same way - but "takes decades, not days."

As I recalled, and Terry has confirmed, Mustard Gas is a liquid. For it to still be a problem, and assuming the Greenpeace man is correct, does it not follow that the soil at Butte de Warlencourt is/was contaminated because the 'unexploded' Mustard Gas shells that I warned about have corroded and released their contents??

[AOK4]

I also think the men working at the Butte de Warlencourt must have been in contact with unexploded gas shells and did not become ill because of contaminated soil.

I know a lot of stories about men becoming ill after touching unexploded gas shells, but I don't believe anyone has become ill because of contaminated soil. Believe me, I've dug in places that were really extremely contaminated in WW1 and there is nothing left from that nowadays.

Jan

[Hedley Malloch]

Today there is little doubt that gas shells present the biggest problems. First, all ammunition decays, but explosives and shrapnel can do so and remain 'safe'. This is much less likely with gas. If the shell casing corrodes, an incident is more likely. Second, although the majority of gases used were one of three types (phosgene, mustard or chlorine) about 20 different types of gas cocktail were employed by all parties. Different safety procedures are required for each type. Identifying the exact type of gas inside the shell is very difficult. French demineurs have given up on visual inspection and now use chromatography and x-ray to identify the contents of each shell.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Out of interest what sort of protection do Great War archeologists use when digging?

When I was involved in digs in this country, mainly crashed planes, we were always weary of leaking oil, unspent ordanance and sometimes human remains.

Ian

[Guest Pete Wood]

The human remains bit is interesting, to me anyway.

I watched a documentary on a group of scientists who were investigating the flu epidemic that killed off so many near, and just after, the signing of the armistice.

In Scandinavia, where the cold weather and soil conditions have allowed bodies to remain almost perfectly preserved, the flu virus was still present.

I live in Blackheath, London. It is, alledgedly, so called because it was where London's dead were buried after the plague which struck the world - Black Death. Apprently no one is allowed to build on the heath for fear of unleashing the virus again. So we locals enjoy one of the few areas in London that still has lovely views.

Oil, as you suggest Ian, does not break down easily - and can cause nasty skin irritations for people who don't take precautions.

[Paul Reed]

Interesting - must have been shells, then. I was just passing on info given to me by Colonel Parker of Flanders Tours many moons ago. It was he who supervised the work on the Butte. Thankfully I wasn't there that day!

[Michael]

the cooling agent was Phosgene gas.

Jim

I suggest that the smoker in your lab was a lucky man.

The refrigerant was probably R12, dichlorodiflouromethane (wow where did I dredge that up from ?), or some such freon CFC. When heated to high temperatures, the gas breaks down to phosgene, amongst other things. The refrigerant itself is harmless other than its obvious freezing potential when expanded from a high pressure.

R12 is now banned due to its O Zone depleting properties.

Michael

[Max Poilu]

First, all ammunition decays, but explosives and shrapnel can do so and remain 'safe'

Remember however, that certain explosives become more dangerous - Picric Acid for instance- as used in many British shells, reacts over time with the metal casing to form some very unstable compounds indeed.

[paul guthrie]

Paul Graham Parker told me the same thing but I do not remember if he said from soil or shells.

[Cliff. Hobson]

I remember a couple or so years ag reading about some children who were affected by mustard gas whilst walking throuhg Bourlon Wood.

[Guest A Mafia Man]

Many moons ago we used to have problems with CTC extinguishers. (Carbon Tetra Chloride). These were commonplace on military & public service vehicles, & many others.

The problem was that when the CTC was discharged onto a hot surface, in a fire situation, it gave off what we know as 'Mustard Gas'. Hence it became illegal to use CTC extinguishers & they became obsolete. They still turn up at auctions, boot sales etc, & because they come in a very nice brass container, they are attractive. So, please, be very aware.

However, if you wish to experience for yourself the effects of mustard gas, then you now know where you can obtain some.

Be alert

Joe

[Jim Gordon]

Michael

Thank you for reassembling my fading memories. You are quite correct it was the cooling agent that broke down into phosgene etc.

Regards

Jim Gordon

[BlackSeptember1918]

Sorry but this is so vage it's hardly worth posting , but I was watching a show a few years ago that mentioned a lab in Belgium that was dedicated to neutralising dug up gas shells from the Great War . I can't remember the figuers , but they said that the lab dealt with x amount of shells a day ( it wasn't a tiny figure ) and if no more was found they would still have enough work to keep them fully employed until 2005 !! ( remembering that this was a few , if not several years ago ) .

Astonishing figures ..

Phil.

[AOK4]

This week, they told that they had so far neutralized 5,000 gas shells in the installation in Houthulst/Poelkapelle.

Jan