Pte Charles Day 245235

[Guest Robin Edmonds]

Hi all, newbie here, so please be gentle.

I've downloaded my grandfather's MIC from the National Archive. I'm slightly confused as to what is on there. Under Corps, it has entries for 2/Lond R, which I assume is 2nd London Rifles. Then it has other cards showing 5 Lond R, 8 Lond R, 11 Lond R, and Labour Corps. The last one, which I take to be a record of his discharge date, has his corps down as LC S C ex Deacons (if I'm interpreting the handwriting correctly). Also, each card has a different badge number.

Two questions really.

Could someone please explain the different corps numbers, and how they refer to a regiment etc (I've seen the regiment referred to as 1/2 London Regiment).

How do I go about finding out what theatre of operations he would have been in. I know that he was awarded the MM, but we don't know what for (London Gazette 23 Feb 1918).

I'm trying to find out for his daughters, who have his picture with the medal hanging on the wall, but he wouldn't talk about his war record. I'm quite interested myself, and this is my first foray into any type of genealogy, so I'm not sure of the form.

Thanks in advance, I'm off to read the rest of the posts on here.

Robin

[Stebie9173]

Welcome to the Forum, Robin.

Firstly the sheet of Medal Index Cards you have downloaded is for six different men. You only need to look at the one which has your man's number on it.

Unless one of the other cards mentions his number again, then these won't be for him.

If you post the details shown on this card, then we will have a further think and give you some help.

The 2nd Battalion London Regiment (full name: 2nd (City of London) Battalion TF (Royal Fusiliers)) were a battalion of a Territorial Force Regiment (Similar to today's TA) and were prt-time soldiers utilised for Home Service only prior to the war. On mobilisation for the war, the battalions of the Territorial Force were split in two. The 1st line battalions (1st 2nd or 1/2nd in this case) were those who had volunteered for overseas duty and were further trained and equipped and soon went overseas. Those left behind formed a "2nd Line" battalion (2nd 2nd or 2/2nd) and served in the UK. The 2nd Line battalions also provided drafts for replacements to the 1st Line battalions after they had gone overseas and started to take casualties)

Extract from the Long, Long Trail:

1/2nd (City of London) Battalion TF (Royal Fusiliers)

August 1914 : in Westminster. Part of 1st London Brigade, 1st London Division.

21 February 1915 : moved to France and joined the 17th Brigade, 6th Division.

14 October 1915 : transferred with Brigade to 24th Division.

9 February 1916 : transferred to 169th Brigade, 56th Division

http://www.1914-1918.net/6div.htm

http://www.1914-1918.net/24div.htm

http://www.1914-1918.net/56div.htm

I see he also served with the Royal Fusiliers:

Medal card of Day, Charles

Corps Regiment No Rank

2nd London Regiment 245235 Private

Royal Fusiliers GS/134899 Private

From what I have been told the Medal Rolls (the books to which the MIC forms an index) for the Royal Fusiliers are very good for showing the specific dates that the men served with their battalions, so I would recommend having a look at them at the National Arcive at Kew. This will also show his Royal Fusiliers battalion number. Service Records are also stored at Kew but 70% were lost in the Blitz. With Day being a reasonably common name (one or two in my family tree!) it would still be needle in a haystack to find it if it survives!

I see his MM was with the London Regiment, so we can reasonably confidently pin his transfer between Regiments to after the end of 1917. He would have been allocated a new number on transfer of Regiments, as each regiment issued it's own numbers during WW1.

I also believe that he probably didn't go overseas before the start of 1917, since he does not have an "early" 4-digit number shown on his MIC. The TF renumbered it's men in 1917 to the 6-digit number format which Charles' MIC shows. Does his MIC have a date shown in "Date of Entry". If not that means he went overseas after 1-1-1916.

Steve.

[Guest Robin Edmonds]

>Welcome to the Forum, Robin.

Thanks, I hope that I can both learn and contribute.

>Firstly the sheet of Medal Index Cards you have downloaded is for six different men. You only need to look >at the one which has your man's number on it.

Ahh, blindingly obvious I suppose. Strange how there were 3 other Charles Day's in the London Regiment. I didn't know his number, so I assumed that he had been moved around. Knowing him, it wouldn't have surprised me.

Hopefully, this is his card.

He was a prisoner of war in Dulmen (Westf) on 29/12/1918, apparently.

Robin

[Stebie9173]

His entry in the London Gazette for his MM is here if you don't have it already:

London Gazette 23-2-1918

245235 Pte. C. Day, Lond. R. (Walworth, S.E.).

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

This is generally all that can be gleaned from "official" sources as MM citation records appear to be long since lost.

A lot of (but by no means all) MMs appeared in the London Gazette around three months after being won. A fair proportion of MMs in this Gazette were won around the time of the battle of Cambrai (famous in WW1 circles for the first major successful use of tanks). Though the early battle went fantastically well, the German's counter attacked and there was much desperate fighting. Medals were won in both offensive (20-11-1917 to 30-11-1917) and defensive actions (30-11-1917 to 4-12-1917) during the battle.

http://www.1914-1918.net/bat21.htm

It looks like 56th Division replaced other Divisions in the line in time for the Counter Attack...

Beyond a "guess" the best place to find mentions of MM awards is in the local weekly papers of the time. Most larger local libraries will have these on Microfilm for their local area. Sometimes MMs are (rarely)mentioned in War Diaries (again stored at Kew) mostly as just "MMs awarded for actions at......" or in Regimental/Divisional/Brigade Histories, but again individual mentions for MMs are uncommon.

Hope this helps,

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Robin,

Charles Day was entitled to the Victory Medal and British War Medal. These were both campaign medals for service overseas. He appears to have served overseas from some point after 1-1-1916, as I mentioned above.

Before we go too far down this route, how do you know that this is "your" Charles Day?

Do you have his number from rim of the the medal(s)?

I assume that his Medal Card for the MM also states 2nd Londons, by the way?

There is a battalion history for the 2nd Londons:

2nd City of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) in the Great War (1914-1919) by Maj W. E. Grey

If his MM is mentioned anywhere in print it would be there:

http://www.naval-military-press.com/FMPro?...5161&-find=

Also:

56TH DIVISION (1st London Territorial Division) 1914-1918 by Major C.H.Dudley Ward

http://www.naval-military-press.com/FMPro?...5161&-find=

A brief but useful web-page:

http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/2londons.htm

Steve.

[Guest Robin Edmonds]

>Before we go too far down this route, how do you know that this is "your" Charles Day?

The framed picture of him and a compatriot has the legend 2nd London Regiment on it.

>Do you have his number from rim of the the medal(s)?

The medal is mounted under the picture, I can't get at it easily (especially as I don't live near my parents, and see them infrequently)

>I assume that his Medal Card for the MM also states 2nd Londons, by the way?

I don't have his medal card. This is different to his MIC I assume ?

I'll try to get that book, I'm starting to get more interested in this the more I hear.

Thanks for all this, by the way. From the speed of your responses, you must be permanently online !

Robin

[Stebie9173]

I have edited my above post to add some links and a second book (the Division in which he would probably have served).

I assumed you had the MM card from the fact you knew the London Gazette date.

This will be his MM Card:

Medal card of Day, C

Corps Regiment No Rank

London Regiment 245235 Private

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=18

It's up to you whether you want to meddle with the medal frame, but I think we can be pretty confident on his identity. Always nice to be sure you're researching the right man, though!

Steve.

[Guest Robin Edmonds]

>I have edited my above post to add some links and a second book (the Division in which he would >probably have served).

More to buy. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do. It would be good to have some idea of when and where he was captured.

>I assumed you had the MM card from the fact you knew the London Gazette date.

I was working from the little information that I noted from the picture. Pencil notes on the back.

>It's up to you whether you want to meddle with the medal frame, but I think we can be pretty confident on >his identity. Always nice to be sure you're researching the right man, though!

I'd rather not, if I don't have to. I will have to find a way of getting a decent picture of the picture, it's too big to go on my scanner, I'll try to photo it next time I'm at mums.

I used to spend a lot of time with him when I was young, running errands (he lost a leg) and listening to his stories. He was forthcoming about his time working in the Borough market in London, but didn't say much about the war. It slipped my mind until I was contacted by someone who was researching their family history, and he found my name on the internet. Now I'm hooked.

Robin

[Stebie9173]

If you were hooked before you will be now you've found this place!

I'm not very good on London but Borough Market would place him around and about the area of Walworth wouldn't it, which is the place of Residence mentioned on the London Gazette entry. ALong with the Gazette date from an independent source, I'm 95% confident this is the right man's info!

As for where he was captured: At the moment, we can do nothing but take wild guesses, but a possibility is that he was wounded whilst winning his MM or thereabouts, recovered in England and transferred Regiments - the Royal Fusiliers were the "Regular" Regiment of London. Going back overseas he went back into the front line. On 21st March 1918, the German's launched Operation Michael - their biggest offensive against the British. Many British and Empire troops were captured over the next two months as the German's adavnced for many miles, overrunning a lot of British positions. Whole battalions were taken prisoner. Statistically, this is the most likely time that he was taken prisoner, but until we know what battalion of the RF he was with we can't even place him anywhere....

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

This is interesting:

Of the ten numbers around Charles' Days number 7 belong to men who had previously served overseas with the 21st London Regiment. These sort of patterns are often significant and may mean that Charles Day served in England with the 21st Londons before transferring to the 2nd Londons and going overseas...

2nd Bn No. /21st Bn. No. / Name

245230 655757 Water

245231 655672 Fox

245232 655756 Thomas

245233 0 Stew

245234 not found

245235 0 Day

245236 655781 Cotton

245237 655778 Feeney

245238 655772 Driman

245239 655775 Sanickson

Steve.

[Guest Robin Edmonds]

>This is interesting:

>Of the ten numbers around Charles' Days number 7 belong to men who had previously served overseas

>with the 21st London Regiment. These sort of patterns are often significant and may mean that Charles

>Day served in England with the 21st Londons before transferring to the 2nd Londons and going overseas...

Where are you getting all this info from ? Is it just stuff that you have from other searches, or have you got a book with it all in.

And is it likely that his 21st number would be within the range of the others, or doesn't it work like that.

Robin

[Stebie9173]

I'm just manipulating the search criteria on the NA website MIC Search.

For example, entering:

Regiment - London

Number - 24523? (the ? acts as a single character wildcard, * will act as a multiple character wildcard).

If he was from the 21st Londons, then his number would probably have been in the same sort of range, but impossible to actually nail it down to one number.

This is the full list of the transfers that seem to be from the 21st Battalion to the 2nd:

654725 245205 Peck

654709 245206 Ward

654542 245207 Payne

654721 245208 Foster

654723 245209 Walton

654708 245210 Philp

None --- 245211 Fincham MGC 162430

None --- 245212 Fairman LC 642029

654729 245213 Morris

654768 245214 Davis

654730 245215 Boother

654726 245216 Ellis

654727 245217 Baskett

654706 245218 Allard

654716 245219 Holt

654715 245220 Clayton, John GS/134879

---------- 245221 not found

654705 245222 Hall

---------- 245223 not found

None --- 245224 Hawes ASC T/443073

655753 245225 Pearmain

654693 245226 Hicks

655769 245227 Dobson

---------- 245228 not found

655759 245229 Sandford

655757 245230 Water

655672 245231 Fox

655756 245232 Thomas

None --- 245233 Stew

---------- 245234 not found

None --- 245235 Day GS/134899

655781 245236 Cotton

655778 245237 Feeney

655772 245238 Driman

655775 245239 Sanickson

655776 245240 Meeks

655750 245241 Hooper

655747 245242 Hanson

655741 245243 Dean

655742 245244 Moxhay

---------- 245245 not found

655748 245246 Oakeley

30 out of the 40 men inthe sequence previously served overseas in the 21st Battalion.

This man seems to have had a very similar career:

John Clayton, 21st Londons 654715, 2nd Londons 245220, GS/134879.

What is also significant is that these men were renumbered in the 21st London Regiment before they transferred to the 2nd London regiment, pinning down the date of their (and Charles') transfer to after March 1917. On the assumption that Charrles transferred battalions just prior to going overseas this would probably mean he went to France in mid-1917.

By the way, do you know the name of the other man in the picture you have seen?

Steve.

[Guest Robin Edmonds]

<snip>

>What is also significant is that these men were renumbered in the 21st London Regiment before they >transferred to the 2nd London regiment, pinning down the date of their (and Charles') transfer to after >March 1917. On the assumption that Charrles transferred battalions just prior to going overseas this would >probably mean he went to France in mid-1917.

That I will have to check with mum/aunt. I feel a trip to Kent coming on.

>By the way, do you know the name of the other man in the picture you have seen?

That is one of the other things that I want to find out. I'll have to go down there with my scanner and get a copy of the picture to post here, someone might recognise the pair. If I can find out when the picture was taken it might help.

Thaks for all your help so far, we might have to put this on hold until I get more info.

Robin