Armed Smack 'Nelson'-1917

[ypresman]

Hi

Whilst researching this VC winner, I have come across 2 entries in the Gazette.

Entry no. 30363, dated 2/11/17 & 31021 dated 20/11/18.

They are both T.Crisp. As I can't find any other RNR personnel, is this a common thing and why does he have 2 entries?

Also on local research, it states he was in the Gazette 30/10/17?

Why the different dates?

Many thanks

Marc.

By the way its the anniversary of his death 15th Aug 1917......

[historydavid]

Marc, I can't answer your specific questions but you might find the following of interest.

The Nelson was with the Ethel & MIllie, both Special Service 'Q'Ships, when attacked and sunk by U 63 with gunfire off the Humber, North Sea on 15th August 1917. Crisp was awarded his VC posthumously, having gone down with his vessel.

The Nelson was formally named the G & E and under this name was given a hidden 3-pounder gun. This occured about the beginning of August 1915 and by the end of that month had been in action against a U-boat (details not known). I don't know that Crisp was her skipper at this time, but he probably was.

I don't have any info. on the intervening period.

Best wishes

David

[ypresman]

Hi

David, firstly many thanks for the reply....may I ask you the following Q's?

What is a Q ship?

What was the full name of the G & E?

If the Vessel was sunk off the Humber, why is he commereated in Kent?

The chap came from Lowestoft, which has several Naval memorials, so I wonder why he wasn't commereated in the town. I know of a new road named after him in the town, but very few, if anyone, knew of his existence.

Many thanks for your help.

Cheers

Marc.

[Adrian Roberts]

What is a Q ship?

The Q ships were merchant or fishing vessels with hidden guns that would come into action when a U -boat attacked.

In other words they had to be U-boat bait. As the war went on, the U-boats became less likely to surface prior to atacking, so the Q-ships had to virtually allow themselves to be torpedoed, and the crews had to wait in hiding on a sinking ship, hoping the Uboat would surface after attacking so that they could open fire. Therefore the arithmetic became at best, one Q-ship lost for one U-boat sunk. No wonder that this branch of the Royal Navy were awarded more VCs than any other.

180 ships were fitted out as Q-ships; they accounted for 11 Uboats.

Attached is a diagram of typical ways that a ship could hide its guns and change its identity

Adrian

[historydavid]

Marc,

1 A Special Service Ship, also known as a 'Q' Ship, was a vessel that purported to be an ordinary fishing vessel or merchant ship, that carried hidden armaments that were capable (hopefully) of sinking a U-boat.

2 In the case of the Nelson, she would probably have accompanied other drifters and innocently fished along with them. If a U-boat came near enough, the gun or guns would have had their covers thrown off and she would have shelled the U-boat.

3 In the case of merchant 'Q' ships they carried very potent armaments, in some cases even torpedo tubes, all of which were ingeniously disguised to give the impression of a target ripe for the picking.

4 These ships often carried "panic parties" which would abandon ship at the sight of a U-boat whilst the rest of the crew remained behind at the guns etc , waiting for an opportune moment to open fire. To lure the U-boat in close they would remain hidden even under fire, even to the point of sinking.

5 G & E was the full name of the drifter (similar abbreviations were quite common.

6 I believe the G & E was originally a Lowestoft drifter before being taken up by the Admiralty.

7 Did you know that his son took over command of the Nelson just before it sank?

8 When you state that he is commemorated in Kent are you referring to the Chatham Memorial? This commemorates the navy war dead (including RNR etc), so it is appropriate.

8 He is also commemorated in Lowestoft, but not in the usual way. The tenor bell at St. Margaret's Church, Lowestoft, is named the "VC Bell" and dedicated to him.

Best wishes

David

[joseph]

Marc,

As David mentions his son also T. Crisp took command before the Nelson Sunk, the second Gazette entry will be his Distinguished Service Medal.

Skipper Crisps VC was awarded after an account of the action was told by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, no Commissioned Officer being present at the engagement with the submarine.

No locality was mentioned in the official story; it begins “An August afternoon, at about a quarter to three”.

Regards Charles

[Michael Lowrey]

I recently had an opportunity to examine German primary source documents relating to the two Crisp U-boat actions.

The February 1, 1917 action involved Q-ships carrying the names I'll Try and Boy Alfred in an inconclusive actions against the small German U-boats UB 6 and UB 16. The elder Crisp was awarded the DSC; Walter Samuel Wharton, Boy Alfred's skipper, a bar to his DSC.

The August 15, 1917 action was actually a prolonged affair, lasting several hours. The same two Q-ships as before, though with new names and one with a new skipper, were in action against a far more powerful foe, the Flanders-based minelaying submarine UC 63. The action began at about 5,400 meters, with UC 63 opening fire. Both smacks soon responded. The U-boat increased the distance to the Q-ships, sinking the Nelson (aka G & E and I'll Try among others) and, per her KTB, forcing the crew of Ethel & MIllie (aka Boy Alfred among others) to abandon ship some hours later after expending nearly all munition.

UC 63 closed on the abandoned vessel, put a number of crew on abroad which retreived the Q-ship's papers, gun, a hydrophone, and orders before sinking her with a scuttling charge. Reading through UC 63's KTB, I get the impression that she took the two vessels not as Q-ship but rather merely as armed smacks.

Best wishes,

Michael

[ypresman]

Hi

Many thanks for all the replies, it will all be used on the project.

Can I just clear up the dates into the Gazette?

I have entries as 30/10/17, 02/11/17 and 20/11/18.

I gather the latter was for the DSC?

Many thanks

Marc.

[kin47]

Hello

Per my records, Crisp was the only man lost in NELSON, while a Skipper, RNR, an RN rating, and 5 RNR ratings were lost in ETHEL & MILLIE. This does not seem to conform to the description of the battle. Can anyone verify?

All best

don

[kin47]

Hello

From the June 1916 NAVY LIST, NELSON was commanded by Skipper George Solomon, RNR from 15 January 1915. Also shown is Skipper Dex Vickers, RNR from June 1915. From the index, both were still on board in the June 1916 list.

All best

don

[Michael Lowrey]

Don,

Your totals are correct. The crew of Ethel & Millie was not recovered (life boats not seen again).

Best wishes,

Michael

[joseph]

Hi,

Nelson was a Q Ship and had several names up to april 1917 it was know as "Ill Try" and "G&A"

7 the whole crew where lost on the "Ethel & Millie" also known as "Boy Alfred"

Official records say the crew where taken prisoner by UC63 and nothing further was heard of them.

"We saw the submarine’s crew line the E&M’s crew up on the submarine’s foredeck." reported 2nd Hand T. Crisp

HMS Dryad signalled Lowestoft Naval Base at 2.19pm on the 17th August 1917. "Picked up crew of Nelson at Jim Howe. Skipper killed remainder all right. Crew of Ethel & Millie reported aboard submarine."

Regards Charles

[kin47]

Hello Charles and Michael

Thank you for your information.

All of the ETHEL AND MILLE's personnel are commemorated on the Chatham Memorial.

All best

don

[Adrian Roberts]

So were the crew of Ethel & Millie put into lifeboats and then lost, or did the submarine submerge while they were on the foredeck? Probably we will never know.

Adrian

[Michael Lowrey]

Adrian,

Actually, it would be "did the crew of Ethel & Millie take to the lifeboats and then were lost/not recovered" -- the account in UC 63's KTB (war diary) is quite clear that its crew abandoned ship after taking a hit and running out of ammunition. After he was sure that all crew were off the cutter, UC 63's CO put a crew on the Q-ship. What is absolutely clear is that this whole episode was pretty much a disaster for the Royal Navy, as the intelligence haul was considerable.

There are some elements of this story that still need to be run down which might clear things up a bit...

Best wishes,

Michael

[joseph]

Michael,

The Nelsons crew who where in their boat, all stated at the inquiry that the submarine picked up the crew of the E&M then boarded the Smack, they then heard the explosion which sank her.

Is there any reference in any of the KTB's of submarines submerging with POW on deck?

Regards Charles

[Michael Lowrey]

OK, looked at UC 63's KTb some more. I misinterpreted something before. The confusing factor is that earlier in the day the UC 63 stopped and scuttled another smack -- and I had presumed the information came from that crew and captured documents. After rereading it, that's clearly not the case.

After taking various items from the Ethel & Millie(LT 200), there's this entry:

"Die volle Ausrüstung soll bestanden haben aus vier Brieftauben, Handwaffen, Maselringe, Sternsignalpistole. Die aus zwei Mann bestehende Geschützbedienung gehörte zur Royal Navy und vier, wie mit Sicherheit festgestellt werden konnte, - einem aufgefundenen Befehl, Uniform zu tragen, zuwiderhandelnd - in vollkommener Zivilbekleidung. Der Kütter führte während des ganzen Gefechts die engl. Handelsflagge.

Der andere Kütter soll nach Aussagen die Nr LT 459 geführt haben.

Kütter LT 200 durch Sprengpatrone versenkt." (Emphasis added.)

An "Aussage" is a statement -- which would establish that the U-boat interacted with the crew of the Ethel & Millie. The sentence translates as "According to statements the other cutter carried the number LT 459."

Next entry, with a new time reference, is that the cutter LT 200 was sunk by a scuttling charge.

The comments ("Bemerkungen") section also provides more detail on information provided by the the Q-ship crew (number of armed smacks (Q-ships?), operational tendences, amount of ammunition carried).

There are two more entries for August 15:

Dived before patrol vessel, apparently destroyer

Resumed homeward voyage.

The time reference in the scan I have for the scuttling and subsequent events is illegible (poor microfilming) and a transcript that someone prepared independantly based upon a photocopy of the original KTB unfortunately does not include the times on the 15th either.

So basically, we're back to an apparently rather talkative Q-ship crew on submarine with the question being what happens to them next: are they put back in their lifeboat before the destroyer appears, or are they on deck when UC 63 is forced to dive before the destroyer...

Best wishes,

Michael

[joseph]

Michael,

Thanks for that, I had a go at the translation using software, is this reasonable?

the full equipment is to have consisted of four letter pigeons, hand weapons Maselringe star signal pistol. The cannon operation consisting of two men belonged to the Royal Navy and four, as with security could be determined, - a found instruction to wear uniform contrary-acting in perfect civil clothing. The cutter led the English commercial flag the other cutter during whole combat is according to statements the NR LT 459 to have led cutter LT 200 by dynamite cartridge sunk.

Regards Charles

[Mike Cross]

When the smack was known as 'I'll Try' Crisp and his crew sank a submarine in January 1917, for which he received the Distinguished Service Medal and the crew shared a reward of £1000. It was apparently after this that the smack was renamed 'Nelson'.

This information fron the Suffolk Record Office.

MC

[kin47]

Hello

Thank you all for the insight into the loss of ETHEL AND MILLIE. This is one of those incidents that these days only interest us few.

All best

don

[Mike Cross]

I have a copy of a photo of the crew of the 'Ethel & Millie'. This picture was published by Suffolk Record Office courtesy of Lowestoft Maritime Museum. There are seven men in this picture, but whether this was the crew at the time of the sinking I do not know. My notes say that " ...the crew were taken prisoner and never heard of again".

MC

[Michael Lowrey]

When the smack was known as 'I'll Try' Crisp and his crew sank a submarine in January 1917, for which he received the Distinguished Service Medal and the crew shared a reward of £1000. It was apparently after this that the smack was renamed 'Nelson'.

This information fron the Suffolk Record Office.

That would be the February 1, 1917 action I referred to earlier against UB 6 and UB 16. Though prize money was awarded, postwar analysis does not list any submarine as sunk in this action and there are no missing submarines that would even vaguely match.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest scadian]

Hi

Many thanks for all the replies, it will all be used on the project.

Can I just clear up the dates into the Gazette?

I have entries as 30/10/17, 02/11/17 and 20/11/18.

I gather the latter was for the DSC?

A bit late, but....

Gazette issue 30363 was dated 2 Nov 17, but was actually published on 30 Oct 17 - hence the double dating. As Q-ships were classified at the time, all it said was that Thomas Crisp had been awarded a posthumous VC.

Gazette issue 31021, published 19 Nov 18, after Q-ships were declassified, gave the details for all of the Q-ship VC awards (there were several).

See here for another example.

Crisp's DSC was published 23 Mar 17 in Gazette issue 29997 (his name is on page 2).

[Clio]

There is, or was, a memorial to T Crisp VC in St Margaret's Church, Lowestoft.

[sadsac]

Ypresman, David, Kin47, `Et Al'

CRISP Thomas DSC 10055DA Killed 15.08.17 Skipper RNR 83P170

H.M. Armed Smack Nelson Commodore in Charge Naval Base Lowestoft

02.11.17 G Action with enemy submarines 15.08.17 VC - Posthumous

In recognition of his signal valour and devotion throughout the action with an enemy submarine on the 15th August, 1917. Early in the action he was hit by a 4-inch shell which took off both his legs at the thighs, and at the same time partly disembowled him. In spite of the terrible nature of his wounds, he retained his conciousness, and his first thought was to report to the Commodore-in-Charge, Lowestoft, giving instructions to his Mate (who was his son) what to write on the pigeaon message, which was duly sent. He refused to be moved into the small boat when they had to abandon the vessel as she sank his last request being that he might be thrown overboard and left.

Note date of Gazette.

KOKO Sadsac