RSM Badge?

[Gordon Caldecott]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me what the differance between a GVR/GV1R and an E11R RSM rank badge is?

Below is a E11R one, I think.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The crown mainly...

ERII versions have the Rounded King Edward's Crown {as in your illustration} GVR & GVIR versions have the smaller more angular Imperial Crown{as used on GVR/GVIR Cap Badges

The earlier ones would be of finer quality & detail & probably hand embroidered & padded

[mutley]

I believe that the EIIR are also smaller, this is of course dependent on the cap badge of the owner.

[Muerrisch]

This is a minefield. Since the end of WW II there have been very many regimental and corps varieties of backings and indeed materials.

Also please note that, until 1915, the Sergeant Major's badge was the relevant crown, on its own. Large of course!

[walrus]

Also please note that, until 1915, the Sergeant Major's badge was the relevant crown, on its own. Large of course!

Surely a crown in a laurel wreath?

It was only a plain crown until the introduction of the Four Company system was introduced and all the 'extra' Colour Sergeants (from the 8 company system) were re-employed.

Tom

[Muerrisch]

Surely a crown in a laurel wreath?

It was only a plain crown until the introduction of the Four Company system was introduced and all the 'extra' Colour Sergeants (from the 8 company system) were re-employed.

Tom

I have to disagree: talking about infantry only, to keep it simple;

The 4 company organisation was promulgated in 1913 but introduced in a rather creaky and un-thought-through fashion such that, over a year later, major reforms such as the change to 4 companies had not yet worked through to the TF.

In 1913 [and since 1882] the single Sgt Major of a battalion wore a crown. QMS 4 chevrons point up, 8 point star above. CSgt wore crown over sgts chevrons.

When war was declared, these still obtained, but the 4 senior CSgts, although badged as such, were called CSM and paid a little more. The 4 junior became CQMS, no change in badge, and paid a negligible extra.

AO 174 of 1915 revised the badge structure, the Royal Arms for the [R]SM, crown for all WO II who included the [R]QMS and all CSM but not CQMS.

In 1918 the [R]QMS, as the senior WO II, was to be distinguished by a wreath round the crown.

Although various Sergeants-Major in the Corps have, at various times worn the crown and wreath, I believe the RSM of infantry never did.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Would all rank crowns be the same size? for example would this be an officers or WO or C/Sgt.

I found it near to the The New Zealand Division Memorial at Longueval. It is brass and not bronze.

Mick

[Gordon Caldecott]

Many thanks guys, you`ve all been of great help and very interesting!!!Thanks very much for taking the time to reply to my thread.

[chris basey]

Here's an RSM who wore two different types of badges of rank. I'm not sure when the photos were taken but that with the Sam Brown is likely to have been pre-WW1 and the other during WW1.

He served from 1877-1904 and then rejoined the Colours in 1914, at the age of 54, to help with training and served until 1919.

Medals ribbons likely to be IGSM Burma 1887-9 and LSGC.

[chris basey]

Here are the photos:

[Muerrisch]

Let us say:

1. same man both photos

2. RSM both photos [bit of an assumption, see above!]

then LHS photo pre-dates RHS photo, and the latter is 1915 or later. Hope this helps.

[Staffsyeoman]

Chris,

What regiment? Could narrow down the Indian General Service Medal clasps then. (To be very very hair-splitty - Indian General Service Medal, with clasp 'Burma...' not GSM Burma').

From some angles looks like a Gunner badge - but the shoulder title seems to scotch that - another it looks like Suffolks, but I can't tell... an enlargement of the badge would help.

[chris basey]

Phil

Thanks for putting me right on the medal!

He served all his time in the Norfolk Regiment.