"2nd Battle of the Scarpe

[pete130356]

Could anyone inform me please of the part if any that the 2nd battalion Royal Fusiliers or any battalion Royal Fusiliers played in the 2nd battle of the scarpe (Arras), April 23rd to 24th 1917. Many thanks.

[horatio2]

7/RF were in 190 Bde of 63rd (Royal Naval) Division during the taking of Gavrelle on 23/24 April 1917, forming a defensive flank to the north of Gavrelle with 4/Bedfords. For the full story see Douglas Jerrold's divisional history and "Gavrelle - Arras" by Tallett and Tasker in the Battleground Europe series from Pen & Sword. The latter gives a very detailed narrative and also mentions the work of 13/RF.

H2

[merchant]

Hi,

My wife's grandfather, JamesMacdonald was serving in the 13th Battalion Royal Scots when he was killed in action on 23rd April 1917 and is buried in the 2nd Canadian Cemetery on Vimy Ridge. Can anyone advise where I might find references to troup movements on that day to pin down where he may have been killed and originally buried before being transferred to the Canadian Cemetery?

Keith Merchant

[J Banning]

Hi Keith,

13th Royal Scots were part of 45th Brigade, 15th (Scottish) Division.

The division were involved in the capture of Guémappe that day. The divisional boundaries were from the Cojeul river to a spot known as La Bergère (Arras-Cambrai road). The 13/Royal Scots were attacking on the extreme left of the Division, linking with the 29th Division who were attacking above the main road up Infantry Hill east of Monchy. The Official History says that “The left of the 13/Royal Scots, advancing with the 29th Division, had reached the Blue Line (their objective), but the right was held up on the Monchy-Guémappe road.”

I don’t have the war diary to hand but have looked through my sources and found the following quote from Private AG Clark (taken from IWM Dept of Docs – ref 84/1/1). I am afraid I haven’t time to cross reference his quote to what actually happened but this should help a bit with that day.

Private AG Clark, 13th Royal Scots

On the night of the 21st we went into the line again, Saturday night, and we were for over the top again on the 23rd. We were shelled pretty heavy during the 2 days, Coy Hqrs being a cellar on the left of the Cambrai Road. The 23rd arrived, my Coy was brought back out of the front at 2.30 a.m. to a trench 70 yards back, I don't know why but it proved disastrous. At 4.30 a.m. we kicked off but got a terrible bombardment from the Germans. I hadn't gone far when I was buried by a shell. I don't know how long I was there, but when I got going again the Coy was not to be seen. I went on again and found my pal Mac. He had also been buried, and was wandering about like a lost sheep. We both went on to find the battalion, but strayed and got mixed up with the Worcester Regt. They were supposed to have been on our left, but were all mixed up, we decided to stop with them, and assisted the stretcher bearers. I dressed a wounded officer, and he gave me a 20 Franc note out of his pocket book as a souvenir, it was all torn, shrapnel having hit his note book, and going right through, we stayed with this regiment till Tuesday when somebody told us the Scots had been relieved, so we went also. We got back into Arras and reported but found the battalion had not been relieved yet - they told us to rest and get some grub and next day Wednesday we were to go back again. I had run out of fags, so had to bust the wounded officer's souvenir. We left to join the Battalion again Wednesday afternoon and found them at night. The Signalling officer told to stop at Hqrs, our pals were glad to see us, as we were reported missing. We shifted up to new hqrs at night, in some old German Gun-Pits, it was cooshy here, but fierce fighting was going on up the front line, and the battalion had suffered heavily. Friday night I was put at an advanced hqrs up the line. It’s a good job we wasn't shelled much, we only had a waterproof sheet covering us, the wire also kept pretty good, only breaking twice. We stayed here all day Saturday, and we nearly fainted with joy when we heard we were being relieved that night. It was early Sunday morning when we left, what was left of us in my company, there were no officers left, only one Lance Corporal, and 17 men. If I hadn't been buried I don't suppose I should be here now. It was the worst time of my life, and how I got through it all I don’t know. We arrived in Arras about 5.30 a.m. Sunday morning, had a good tot of rum which very near knocked us all drunk. Cigarettes, chocolate and cake were supplied by the Padre and the remaining officers. They also sprang it on us again at breakfast, 2 fried eggs and ham for breakfast – it nearly made us wish we came out of the line every day. In the afternoon we moved back down the line to Berneville….

I am up to my ears in work at present but when I have more time, provided someone else hasn’t got back to you, I will give some more information. In the meantime, here is a map (from April 1918 so don't use any of the trench line for reference). I have put a ring around La Bergère and Guémappe so they stand out a bit.

Best wishes,

Jeremy

[merchant]

Hi Jeremy( Banning) Lt Col...

Many thanks for your reply to my query about the 2nd battle of the scarpe. Lots of information for me to digest . I will no doubt be back with more questions!!

Regards

Keith Merchant

[connaughtranger]

Hi

10th & 13th Battalions were involved around Cuba Trench.

Regards

Martin.

[JimSmithson]

Hi Keith

These 2 maps might help you in your work. The first shows the dispositions of the 15th Division units that attacked on the 23rd, the second where they were at 8pm that evening.

[JimSmithson]

I have quite a bit of info on that attack from Divisional and Brigade diaries. A quick glance gives one the impression that it was a black day for the regiment, not a single officer or senior NCO above Corporal came back from the attacking companies (some were found wounded later). 5 officers killed and 7 missing was the initial count.

By the way Martin, if you read this, Cuba Trench is much further north than the action here, which was mainly around Dragoon Lane, Bullet and String Trenches for the 13th at least. Not sure whether you mean the 10th Royal Scots as they were not in France (1/10th and 2/10th were cyclist units kept in Scotland).

Get back to me if you would like some more information.

Jim

[merchant]

Hi Jim,

Really so grateful for this info, it answers so many questions. We visited the place where James is buried, The Canadian cemetery at Vimy ridge, which we found odd as some other Royal Scots were buried there too, all from 23rd April 1917. The CWGC gave us more info that he was originally buried on a cross roads north of Guemappe and we are going to visit the Imperail War Museum who have traced the map reference for us.

Your maps however seem to point to the very crossroads we are aiming for, right in the middle of the 13th Battalion trenches!!!

Thanks again for this very important piece of information. You mention some war diaries, can you tell me where they are held and if I may view them?

Regards

Keith Merchant

[JimSmithson]

Hi Keith

I have the Divisional (General Staff) and Brigade April diaries for 15th Division and 45 Brigade. They are in Kew but I can send you any relevant pages if you would like them - just PM me with an email address. I was about threequarters through the division when time ran out on my time at Kew so I have not got the battalion diary yet. Maps and descriptions are often better than in battalion diaries though from all the ones I have so far.

Ironic but I think the crossroads you are talking about actually has a CWCG Cemetery - Windmill.

Jim

[merchant]

Hi Jim,

We plan to visit Kew and te Imperial War Museum in the near future so we will get the war diaries then, in the mean time thanks for all the information and if you get anything else you might think is relevant please use my E mail address k.merchant@hotmail.co.uk.

Regards

Keith

[JimSmithson]

Hi Keith

My work is concentrated on the 1st Battle of the Scarpe and therefore at the moment I doubt I will come across anything for you but if I do I will be in touch. I have your email address now so it might be better to edit your post and remove it otherwise the web crawlers that look for email addresses might pick it up resulting in mountains of spam.

Jim

PS I don't think we properly welcomed you to the Forum - Welcome and enjoy our world, a warning though, it can be addictive.