Doug Johnson Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 The following photograph is of a grave marker that marked the original grave of Pte William McGraa of the Coldstream Guards who died at Gustrow on the 8th Dec 1914. The unit initials after his name are CGSJ it is assumed that the CG stands for Coldstream Guards. Has anyone any idea what the SJ is likely to stand for? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Society of Jesuits? I see the cross says "Graa", rather than "McGraa", tho' the CWGC site has him as McGraa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Johnson Posted 4 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Steven, Took ages to work out who he was. He is listed in WO161 as McGrath! This is the full photo. Ignoring Gillfillan's grave which is non standard, the grave of Job Clarke is to the left of McGraa's. Again a problem with names, the CWGC just has him as J but he is Job according to his MIC and not Joseph as per the marker, easy to see what happened, he was known as Joe and when he died it was assumed this was short for Joseph! However, the format of the marker is the same so as 'The Yorkshire Rgt; Prisoner of War' follows Clarke's name CGSJ should be McGraa's unit. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Steven, Took ages to work out who he was. He is listed in WO161 as McGrath! This is the full photo. Ignoring Gillfillan's grave which is non standard, the grave of Job Clarke is to the left of McGraa's. Again a problem with names, the CWGC just has him as J but he is Job according to his MIC and not Joseph as per the marker, easy to see what happened, he was known as Joe and when he died it was assumed this was short for Joseph! However, the format of the marker is the same so as 'The Yorkshire Rgt; Prisoner of War' follows Clarke's name CGSJ should be McGraa's unit. Doug He was buried by the Germans, who got both his and Clarkes names wrong. Maybe a non English speaking German also messed up the CGSJ? I can't think what SJ would stand for if not Society of Jesuits. From his wooden cross he seems to be a Catholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 I`d go along with your thinking, Beppo. It`s not likely that a regular private soldier would be a member of the Society of Jesus and I suspect we`re looking at a "misprint"! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Johnson Posted 4 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Hi Guys, He would have been buried by his fellow PoWs and not the Germans. Guards do not did graves or do funerals whilst there are hundreds of prisoners available to do it! However, whilst I think the Brits buried these ones it could have been the French/Belgian/Russians who did it or at least made the marker. However, if you look at the grave marker at the very right of the picture where you can just see 'Fidele Ro?' underneath it says 'Decede' whereas the Brit ones say 'Died' which means that it was someone who knew English who wrote it even if it was copied by someone else. The mistakes are almost certainly a result of the chaotic and deplorable conditions the prisoners were kept in at this early stage of the war. According to reports the prisoner had not even had a wash for some months and certainly nobody was interested in keeping much in the way of records. What is interesting is why Coldstream Guards was abbreviated to CG. There was enough room to write The Yorkshire Rgt out in full so why not Coldstream Gds for example. That seems to indicate that SJ meant something important enough to have it included as part of the regiment name. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KevinEndon Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Could it be something as simple as rank (serjeant) as there are no more indications towards his rank as far as I can see. Maybe I am way off the mark but who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 I agree with PRIVATEPARTS. Considering the origin of the marker, could very well be an abbreviation of Sgt. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Johnson Posted 4 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2006 I had not thought of rank, however he was a private. Clarke has no rank either. Presumably all dead are equal. There has to be a simple explanation. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Is it possibly "Special Reserve", mis-spelt? Desperate, but possible. Do you know anything more about him? Are his records still in existence at Kew? Interesting conundrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen D Posted 4 August , 2006 Share Posted 4 August , 2006 Soldier's Died not much help. McGraa,William. Born St John's, Yorks. enlisted Workington. 7894. Pte. Died Germany 8/12/14. (SJ=St John's????) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 5 August , 2006 Share Posted 5 August , 2006 Is it possibly "Special Reserve", mis-spelt? Desperate, but possible. Do you know anything more about him? Are his records still in existence at Kew? Interesting conundrum. Hello Ive yet to find a Coldstream Guards papers at the NA for a casualty Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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