David Seymour Posted 24 October , 2003 Share Posted 24 October , 2003 Two Thetford Grammar School pupils were killed serving with the RAF. If anyone can help me with info about the men or their squadrons/aircraft I would be most grateful. My current sources are CWGC and the school archives. Many thanks, David SURNAME: Melbourne C/NAMES: Arthur R. DOB: 5/99 UNIT: 80 Sqn. RAF DATE OF DEATH: 14/6/18 RANK: Second Lieutenant MEMORIAL: Arras Flying Services Memorial PARENT: R.E. Melbourne, Methwold, Norfolk SURNAME: Wells C/NAMES: Charles D. DOB: 13/1/97 UNIT: 62 Sqn. RAF DATE OF DEATH: 16/5/18 RANK: Lieutenant MEMORIAL: Corbie Communal Cemetery Extension, Somme, France PARENTS: son of Charles Herbert and Anna Wells, of Manor House, Hempstead, Norfolk. ADDITIONAL: Military Cross and Mentioned in Despatches. Obtained his commission in the 7th Bn., Royal Lancashire Regt., 1914, transf. To RAF, 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 24 October , 2003 Share Posted 24 October , 2003 As a starter - from 'Airmen Died...' Arthur Robert Melbourne 80 Sqn, RAF KiA in Sopwith Camel (serial D6420) on Western Front Charles Douglas Wells 62 Sqn, RAF Age 21 Died as observer in Bristol F.2B (serial C4859) on Western Front Pilot, Lt C.H. Arnison, wounded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 24 October , 2003 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2003 Terry, Many thanks for your swift reply! Amazing that the individual aircraft are recorded. Do you know what the opposition was flying? Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 24 October , 2003 Share Posted 24 October , 2003 Terry, Many thanks for your swift reply! Amazing that the individual aircraft are recorded. Do you know what the opposition was flying? Regards, David On 14th June 1918 Lt.W Schwartz shot down a camel from 80 Squadron over Dreslincourt at 20:00 hrs to claim his 6th victory. Same date ,same place, Lt.U.Neckel shot 2 Camels of 80 Sqn down at 20:10 and 20:15 hrs recording his 11th and 12th victories. These two flyers were from Jasta 13 and 2/Lt.melbourne would have been the victim of one of these two. Arnison and Wells were shot down at 14:40 hrs on 16th May 1918 over Sailly-le-Sec by Ltn.H.Kirchstein of Jasta 6. This was his 12th victory. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 24 October , 2003 Share Posted 24 October , 2003 As an update, it was Ltn.Ulrich Neckel who claimed Camel number D6420. He died in Italy in 1928 of tubercolosis aged 30. Ltn.Hans Kirchstein was killed in a flying accident on 16th July 1918 near Magneaux at the age of 21. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 24 October , 2003 Share Posted 24 October , 2003 David The history of each individual aircraft of the UK air forces is often better documented than the history of the pilots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 24 October , 2003 Share Posted 24 October , 2003 Dave I've just got "The Sky Their Battlefield" (arrived yesterday morning), so I know I'd be able to answer part of a "what happened to" question. But what's your source for the German side of things? "The Sky....." credits Neckel with shooting down Melbourne and the other Camel (doesnt mention Schwartz) With regard to Arnison & Wells, The Sky records them being on Offensive Patrol and being forced to land. The aircraft was then abandoned and it was shelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 24 October , 2003 Share Posted 24 October , 2003 John. To get my information I was cross-referencing "The Jasta War Chronology" by Franks ,Bailey and Duiven with "Above the Lines" by Franks ,Bailey and Guest. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 25 October , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2003 Dave, Thank you for those details. It all helps to build up the full picture and bring their stories home to the pupils. Do you know which types the victors were flying? I am also hoping to find out something about their careers both pre- and post-enlistment. Melbourne left school in 1916 and Wells in 1911. Wells obtained his commission in the 7th Bn., Royal Lancashire Regt., 1914, transf. to RAF, 1918. I wonder if Melbourne went straight to RFC/RAF? Many thanks to all for help thus far. Look forward to hearing from you again! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 I was cross-referencing "The Jasta War Chronology" by Franks ,Bailey and Duiven with "Above the Lines" by Franks ,Bailey and Guest. Two more on the shopping list, then. Cheers, mate. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 How about another, John. "Above the Trenches" by Shores ,Franks and Guest. This is the equivalent of "Above the lines" but deals with the British fliers. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 Sad that these 2 young men had to meet in aerial combat with one having the more experience and having become an ace. Melbourne was in a Camel which was , I think, a usefully competitive aircraft - so who knows what chain of circumstances led to his demise. Relativel ack of combat experience might be the explanation. Did Melbourne have any victories to his account ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec McCudden Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 The following concerns is from “The Sky their Battlefield” by Trevor Henshaw “D6420 Sopwith Camel 80 squadron. Offensive patrol left 6.20pm. Seen over Dreslingcourt. Sopwith claim in combat over Dreslingcourt 7-10pm bt Ltn U. Neckel, Jasta 12” And for CD Wells “C4859 Bristol F2b, 62 Squadron. Offensive patrol. Combat with enemy aircraft over Corbie (Lt CH Arnison WIA/Lt CD Wells KIA) left 12.15pm, aircraft abandoned on ground and shelled. (Bristol Fighter claimed in combat Sailly-le-Sec 1.40pm by Lt H Kirschenstein, Jasta 6). Arnison claimed several victories in this aircraft in barely 2 months.)” Alec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 Just to close off on Camel D6420; it was built under Contract No AS 7737 of 2 August 1917 by Boulton & Paul Ltd of Norwich. The aircraft were numbered D6401 to D6700 and had either 140hp Clerget 9Bf or 110hp Le Rhone 9J engines. D6420 had a Le Rhone engine and was delivered by 10 April 1918. It arrived at No 80 Sqn on 1 June and, flown by 2Lt A R Melbourne, failed to return from an Offensive Patrol on 14 June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 27 October , 2003 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2003 I wonder if Arnison and Wells usually flew together? Interesting news about Melbourne's Camel being built at Norwich - only thirty miles away from his school! It would be interesting to know what sort of aircraft were being flown by the men who shot them down. Regards to all. Your continuing help is very much appreciated. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 October , 2003 Share Posted 28 October , 2003 It would be interesting to know what sort of aircraft were being flown by the men who shot them down. To narrow it down a little, Jasta 12 (Neckel) was made up of Albatrosses and Fokker Triplanes. These had black tails and rear fuselages with a white spinner or engine cowling. Jasta 6 (Kirchstein) flew Mercedes engined Fokker DVII's from May to June 1918 (replaced by BMW engined ones in June).These had black and white stripes on the elevators with personal markings on the fuselages. This Jasta (along with 4,10 and 11) was part of von Richtofen's Jagdgeschwader I (the "flying circus"). Hope this helps to give an idea. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 1 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Dave, Very many thanks. These details will help greatly when we make the model aircraft for our exhibition about Melbourne and Wells. Do you have any details of the paint schemes and squadron markings for Melbourne's Camel (80 Sqn. RAF) and Wells’ F2B (62 Sqn. RAF)? Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 David Both aircraft would most probably have been in the 1918 standard* RFC finish of PC10 (chocolate brown-ish, with perhaps a touch of olive, depending on your reference source) upper surfaces and clear doped linen (yellow-ish cream) under surfaces. The best reference for unit markings is Les Rogers' 'British Aviation Squadron Markings of World War I' which includes photographs of aircraft from (I think) every RFC, RNAS, RAF and AFC squadron. No 62 Squadron wasn't using a unit marking by the time of Lt Wells' death. In common with all other RFC two-seater units on the Western Front, they removed their markings (a white vertical bar ahead of the fuselage roundel and two bars behind it) after 22 March 1918. RFC Headquarters ordered the removal to prevent the Germans from identifying units, and then tracing their movements, from the markings. Individual aircraft were identified by large white letters on the engine cowlings below the exhaust and the same letter on the port upper wing. No 80 Squadron used a white vertical bar on the fuselage side just ahead of the tail, and a full chord, rib width, white stripe on the upper starboard centre section, with the aircraft's individual letter behind the fuselage roundel. * = I won't bore you with the complexities of other finishes such as PC12 and Nivo, as they don't apply in this case. Cheers Dolphin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 2 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2003 Dolphin, This is excellent material, very helpful indeed. Thank you very much. I'll look out for the reference you mention. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 20 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2004 Recently I have been to the Public Record Office and seen a personal file for Arthur Melbourn. This deals with his entry into the RFC at S Farnborough and with his application for a commission. The record ends in late 1917. It is a WO 339 doc. Arthur was killed with the RAF in June 1918 and I can find nothing else on him, even in AIR. Does anyone have any ideas about which other records might deal with him? As always most grateful for any help. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 21 July , 2004 Share Posted 21 July , 2004 There should be an entry for him on the Air 76 microfilms. Would detail his training, dates, promotions, postings etc. He should also appear in The Air Force List. Both these sources are on "open shelves" at the PRO. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie Posted 17 August , 2004 Share Posted 17 August , 2004 A question about RFC materials and sources - I have just looked up two pilots at the PRO and both had ordinary paperwork WWO files - should I ahve been looking for AIR microfilms as well? Kathie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigantian Posted 17 August , 2004 Share Posted 17 August , 2004 Kathie Microfilmed RFC/RAF officer’s files are in AIR 76, which is indexed alphabetically. Original files for RFC/RAF enlisted men are in AIR 79, which is indexed by service number. Your men will almost certainly have AIR 76 files in addition to those in WO. Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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