Guest somme Posted 26 December , 2002 Share Posted 26 December , 2002 Could anyone give me some information on the following? A letter from my grandfather written on 12th August 1917 gives his address as: The Buffs 38th IBD at P.O Section 17 BEF France I'm having problems tracking down his subsequent movements. Any information on any of the above terms, except "Buffs" would be gratefully received. Many thanks, Nick Diver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 26 December , 2002 Share Posted 26 December , 2002 First thoughts would be that 38th IBD would probably be 38th Infantry Brigade. Which in August 1917 was serving in Mesopotamia with the 13th (Western) Division. However this Division did not have a battalion of the East Kents (The Buffs) with them. This is one for Paul Reed Cheers Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 26 December , 2002 Share Posted 26 December , 2002 Nick 38 IBD was 38 Infantry Base Depot, which was at Etaples. If your grandfather was newly arrived in France, he would have been sent here to receive final training and kitting out prior to being drafted to a battalion at the front. `PO Section 17' is a bit of a mystery - it could refer to that part of the Army Post Office at Etaples which supported 38 IBD. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 December , 2002 Share Posted 26 December , 2002 As Charles has already stated, the IBD is indeed an Infantry Base Depot. Section 17 might be the training section he was attached to at Etaples while with 38th IBD, but I have not seen this mentioned in a postal address before. Do you know which Bn of the Buffs he went to after the IBD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somme Posted 26 December , 2002 Share Posted 26 December , 2002 Paul, Regarding the battallion he was attached to, this is something of a mystery. The medal rolls in the PRO say 7th battallion yet the War Diary of the 7ths reports that this battallion saw no action until October 1917. The peculiarity lies in the fact that my grandfather was seriously wounded in action in late September and was invalided back to England. A possible solution to the problem also presented itself through the medal rolls. In late August (22nd and 23rd) a number of soldiers were moved from "the Buffs", no more detail being given, to the London Regiment. Perhaps he was one of these....... A fly in the ointment is that in the early months of 1918 he was moved to Salonika with the 2nd Buffs. No exisiting documentation gives any suggestion of a short stay with the London Regiment and his number remained the same until his discharge in 1919. Problems, problems. Best wishes, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 December , 2002 Share Posted 26 December , 2002 When you say they weren't in action, you mean they didn't fight in a battle. They must have been in the line - from memory in the Arras area? A soldier didn't have to be going over the top to be hit; most men were killed or wounded in the day-to-day activities of trench warfare rather than in big battles. I have the Buffs regimental history and will check this tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somme Posted 26 December , 2002 Share Posted 26 December , 2002 I haven't seen the war diary for about 6 months but, from memory, they really weren't in the line at all for a number of weeks from mid/late August to late September. They seemed to spend their time training, drilling and playing cricket. There was a plane attack in late September but from the stories of the gentleman himself, it is clear that he saw action in the front line itself. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Furnell Posted 27 December , 2002 Share Posted 27 December , 2002 Hello Nick. It is very true that many men could be in the area of the western front and not see action for quite some time. It seems that with new battalions,there was some sort of bedding in period,a period where they would be introduced to the life of the trenches and action on the western front,gradually,before they were sent over the top. There are many instances where men saw their first action within days,in some cases hours,of arriving at the front,but to most of them,the normal soldiers life of loads of boredem followed by moments of intense action,were the norm. My great-grandad arrived in France and Flanders in March of 1917. He didn't see proper action until May or June of that year. To say the least he was very busy,what with anti-aircraft duty,parades,barrage firing exercise's,the list is endless. His company also had to endure German bombing raids at night and suffered casaulties as a result of these raids. They were far behind the lines at the time,yet they were still losing men. Are the Buffs the East Kent Regiment? Let me know. Regards. Simon Furnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 27 December , 2002 Share Posted 27 December , 2002 When they were not in the support or front lines, infantry battalions spent much of the time providing carrying or working parties. Many men were hit whilst on such duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 27 December , 2002 Share Posted 27 December , 2002 Hi Nick According to SDGW the 7th East Kents (55 bde, 18th Div) had 74 other ranks killed between 1/8/17 to 1/10/17. The majority was killed during late September with 13 killed on 29 Sept and 23 killed on 30 Sept. Although 33 were killed between 1/8/17 and 20/8/17. Checking with the CWGC site shows that those killed are buried or commemorated around Ypres. (I did not check all) Those killed in August are in Hooge Cemetery, Brandhoek Cem. Tyne Cot Mem and Menin Gate Mem. Those killed in late September are buried in cemeteries such as:- Mendinghem, Dozinghem and Nine Elms in the Poperinghe area. According to Orders of Battle of Divisions, the 18th Div were involved in the Battle of Inverness Copse (10 August) and Battle of Langemark (16/17 August) However it does not give any info regarding battles fought at the end of September. Chris McArthy's book Passchendaele the day-by-day Account does not give the 7th East kents a mention until around 12 October. Have you tried looking at the Brigade War Diaries? for further info or 'Historical Records of the Buffs (Vol 3) 1914-19' by Col. R S Moody published 1922. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robwilliams Posted 31 December , 2002 Share Posted 31 December , 2002 Nick, The best thing to do is to consult the rolls of the British War Medal/Victory Medal at the PRO. First, check the MIC and you will see a code (letters and numbers) next to the entries for these medals. These codes actually refer to the page/volume of the above rolls. There is a folder which translates these codes for you, alternatively ask the staff. Once you have figured out the volume and page, order that volume. If you are lucky it will give a 'complete' list of all of the battalions in which your ancestor served, and if he transferred regiments, his new identity. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 2 January , 2003 Share Posted 2 January , 2003 Hello Group From the Regimental History of the Buffs by R S Moody page 272 Capt. Sherren KIA commanding C coy 3rd August 1917 Capt. Clapperton wounded the following night The Buffs back at Cahteau Segard on the 8th and into Divisional Reserve on the 10th. The Buffs were in reserve at a place called Railway Dugouts and at 6.00a.m. seent one company to support the 8th East Surreys who were making an attack. A Coy was despatched and in the evening B Coy joined them, these two companies rejoining headquarters on the 13th. September - training 23rd entrained to St. Jan Ter Biezen, 28th bombed in camp by six bombs (two of which were blind) 1 officer killed three wounded with 26 other ranks killed and 63 wounded. Nick , do you have service papers for your man? Do you have a date of when he was wounded? Any more information available? Hope this helps Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somme Posted 7 January , 2003 Share Posted 7 January , 2003 Andrew, Many thanks for the infrormatiom. The peculiarity of the situation is this- I've looked at the available records and the following problems emerge: a) The service records, whilst in existence, are very hard to read. All that can be diserned is that he was injured on the 26th or 28th Sept. To be fair if could be any other date in the last few dates of September 1917. From what he himself said, he saw service in the front line. The 7th Buffs were not in the front line in the period between his being injured and his beign wounded. c) The medal rolls show that a number of Buffs were moved to the London Regiment in the period before he was injured. I wonder whether he was amongst them although his own medal roll records don't report this. Such problems, Many thanks for your help, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 8 January , 2003 Share Posted 8 January , 2003 Nick Do you know to which Battalion of the London Regt. he was sent? I searched SDGW and found only 8 casualties for the 28.09.17 in the London Regt. 7 DOW and 1 KIA from the 1st Bn. searching the dates 26th - 28th reveals a few more - 129 casualties 1st Bn. 9th Bn. 5th Bn. 22nd Bn. etc and on..... but in the supplementary notes only one listed as previously serving in the 3/4th West Kents Searched the dates 1st -30th September under London Regt. - 894 casualties Add in the search field Kent for the supplementary notes and you get only 7 results, from these 1 from the 4th Bn. 1 from the 5th Bn. and 1 from East Kent Regt. I then tried to search the East Kent Regt. using the first four digits from his service number and a wild card, for the man listed only as East Kent. No luck. So, conclusion.... the London Regiment indeed did see some action in September but then again this is a massive unit and we need to narrow down the Battalion at least to try and figure out other means of searching. Over to you, Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somme Posted 11 January , 2003 Share Posted 11 January , 2003 Many thanks for all of this information. From the London Regiment medal rolls it seems that a number of soldiers moved from the Buffs to the 2/2 London Regiment on about the 20th August. My Grandfather's entry in the Buffs' medal roll doesn't report that he was one of these individuals, but the fact that after his injury in September he was retuned to the Buffs (2nd Btn) may have something to do with this. I imagine that the only way to find out for sure is to see a casualty list for the aircraft attack on the 7th Buffs at the end of September but I don't suppose that such a document exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 11 January , 2003 Share Posted 11 January , 2003 A quick search of SDGW for the London Regiment 2nd Bn. from the date 01/08/17 until 30/09/17 shows 125 casualties most of these on the 16/08/17. None of them however show any previous service in any of the Kent Regiments. Sorry, as you say maybe from the battalion records there may be a list showing casualties returned for the bombing of their billets. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 11 January , 2003 Share Posted 11 January , 2003 Apologies if you have already thought of this but is it not equally possible he was reallocated to the 7th bttn rather than being returned to his own bttn after recovering from his wounds ie. when he crossed to France he was serving with a different Buffs bttn to the 7th, but ended the war in the 7th, hence the MIC record. It is a great shame nothing in his service record has survived that could positively tell you with which bttn (or Rgmt) he was serving with at different times on the Western Front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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