Dowding, Park and Leigh-Mallory.

[FAAAEd]

Reading around events of WW2 as well as WW1 the relationship between these men becomes interesting.

A recent book 'Honour Restored' by a Battle of Britain pilot, Squadron Leader Peter Brown AFC, who flew with both 12 Group (Big Wing - Leigh Mallory & Bader) and 11 Group (Park), describes the activities of a cabal who sought to undermine the reputation of Dowding and were instrumental in his 'early retirement' to North America'.

The roll of Leigh-Mallory in particular is interesting as being I/C of a Fighter Group but whose WW1 experience, so I understand, was largely restricted to flying observation and artillery spotting sorties.

Further, in 'A Few of the First' by Bruce Lewis I read that, 'Archibald [WH James] formed a far less favourable impression of another leader... Dowding...was thoroughly disliked by the men of 16 Squadron when he took over fron Tony Holt....They found 'Stuffy' Dowding pernickety, interfering and querulous.'

Has Lewis continued with a justified hatchet-job on Dowding and is the above a fair assesment?

What does the team think?

[Adrian Roberts]

I wouldn't say that Leigh-Mallory's experience "being restricted" to observation and artillery spotting would count against him. These roles were extremely hazardous and required considerable skill. Also, far more airmen were involved in them than were single-seater pilots, so statistically it is to be expected that a majority of WW2 leaders would have been two-seater pilots or (e.g. Robert Saul) observers. Dowding seems to have only flown operationally for the first few months of WW1. The only [british] WW2 leaders who were fighter aces were Park and (ironically) "Bomber" Harris.

Huge amounts have been written about the in-fighting around Dowding in 1940. But for one thing, he was due for retirement in any case (born 1882) and it had been proposed that he retire in 1938.

Dowding can be compared with Montgomery. Both were idolised by their men and by the press, but both were an absolute pain to work with. You wouldn't have wanted either as your manager. But both produced results - as Churchill said, nice men don't win wars. I don't know if its significant that both men had been married to wives they adored, and both were widowed before WW2.

Perhaps a greater injustice was that when Dowding was "removed", Park, who was closely associated with him, suffered a career downturn as well.

Adrian

[Terry]

Adrian,

Your mention of Park and Harris could also be expanded by adding Black Mike McEwen's name. While not British, (he was Canadian), he had 27 victories in WW1 (MC,DFC & bar,Italian Bronze Medal for Valor), and in WW2 served as AOC No.6 Group,Bomber Command with the rank of Air Vice Marshall (CB). Obviously he did not reach Air Marshall rank or higher.

[jhill]

It does appear that Dowding was not universally admired in the first war.

Don Brophy was a pilot in 21 Squadron in July, 1916 when Dowding commanded 9 Wing. Brophy's diary has been published and we see the following entry:

"Tuesday, July 11th, 1916

The chief kicks about our bomb-raids have been the poor forma-tion, leaving us in danger of being separated, and ‘done in’ by huns. The Colonel* decided he’d lead us to show us how. He was to lead and Capt. Carr and I were next, and four others in pairs behind, and nine scouts [from 60 Squadron]. At 6,000 we met thick clouds, and when I came through I couldn’t see anyone anywhere, so I just flew around and finally sighted three machines. I went over and found Carr and the Colonel, and two scouts, so I got into place and the Colonel went over to the lines, and kept circling to get higher for half an hour, right over the lines.

I thought this was a foolish stunt, as I knew the huns could see us, and would be waiting for us. I was very surprised that they didn’t shell us, but there was a battle on, and they were probably too busy. We were right over Albert, as I recognized two huge mine craters that had been sprung July 1st.

When we did cross over with only two scouts, we hadn’t beenover more than a couple of minutes, before I saw three Fokkers coming towards us, and a couple of LVG’s* climbing up to us. An-other Fokker was up above me, and behind, between our two scouts. I knew he was going to dive at one of us, but expected the scouts to see him and attack him, so I didn’t bother about him, but began to get the stop-watch time of my bomb sight to set it for dropping.

While I was doing this I suddenly heard the pop-pop-pop’s of machine guns, and knew the huns had arrived. I looked and saw them diving in amongst us, and firing. There were seven LVG’s and three Fokkers as far as I could make out, but they went so fast I could hardly watch them. Our scouts went for them, and I saw the Colonel turn about.

My gun being behind me I couldn’t get in a shot, and turned around after Carr and the Colonel. They fired some more as we went back but didn’t hit me. The Colonel was hit and so the show was over. He had about a dozen bullets in his machine, and was hit in the hand. His gun was shot through, and his observer hit in the face. He probably won’t try to lead us again."

Brophy's editor adds this footnote:

"* Lieut. Col. H.C.T. ‘Stuffy’ Dowding would subsequently lead the RAF’s Fighter Command to victory in the Battle of Britain, 1940, and end his career as Air Chief Marshal Lord Dowding of Bentley Priory. Dowding was one of the few men of his rank to fly on operations but shortly after the incident recounted by Brophy, Dowding asked that 60 Squadron (which lost half it’s flying strength in August) be withdrawn from operations for rest and recuperation. General Trenchard stigmatized him as a ‘Dismal Jimmy’, and had him posted to the Home Establishment in England. See Robert Wright, The Man Who Won The Battle of Britain (New York, 1969), p. 36, and/or Andrew Boyle, Trenchard (London, 1962), p. 184."

[FAAAEd]

I wouldn't say that Leigh-Mallory's experience "being restricted" to observation and artillery spotting would count against him.

It would where fighter tactics are concerned which is the crux of the Big Wing v Repeated Small Numbers attack argument. This is a topic which Peter Brown covers with some authority.

I have a picture of Mallory sitting behind a desk holding a model aircraft and his facial expression suggests a man of petulant ways.

We have a street around here named after his brother George - lost on Everest June 8th 1924.

These roles were extremely hazardous and required considerable skill.

I would not dispute that, many an unsung hero on those flights which required the sustained cool courage displayed by the bomber crews of the later war.

Dowding seems to have only flown operationally for the first few months of WW1.

A statement refuted in a later post on this thread which describes an incident during Dowding's time in charge of a fighter wing in 1916.

Huge amounts have been written about the in-fighting around Dowding in 1940. But for one thing, he was due for retirement in any case (born 1882) and it had been proposed that he retire in 1938.

With respect, and from reading Brown, Dowdings proposed retirement had more to do with politics than suitability for post of CAS (Chief of Air Staff) which post had been taken, over Dowding's head, by Cyril Newall who then moved for Dowdings removal.

But both produced results - as Churchill said, nice men don't win wars.

Churchill: ever the expert with rhetoric.

Perhaps a greater injustice was that when Dowding was "removed", Park, who was closely associated with him, suffered a career downturn as well.

Adrian

That was inexcusable and I think demonstrates the vindictive nature of some of the other personalities involved, particularly L-M. The roots of this animosity seem to be buried in the events of WW1.

During the 1930s and and early 1940s some in the upper echelons of the RAF (and also by association elements of the establishment) would appear to be enmeshed in intrigue. Intrigue not only within the UK but also involving foreign powers. It should be rememembered that for these upper echelons Communist Russia was a bigger bogey-man than Nazi Germany. Hence the ongoing curiosity WRT the arrival of Rudolf Hess in Scotland. Did the concentration on The Big Wing by 12 Group commander have a more sinister purpose - to reduce casualties in both opposing airforces. Similarly was Operation Fuller botched for similar reasons.

Sorry about the excursion into WW2 discussion here but I am simply trying to establish the origins of the relationships between these leading figures and indicate why it is of interest.

BTW I just cannot make the quote, unquote work here, I have studied the sequence of mark-ups closely and repeatedly but the error escapes me. Must be the heat.

[healdav]

I'm not an expert on this, but I have always understood that the pro-Dowding wing had the following beefs about his treatment:

1. Bader as a junior Wing Coomander (and really squadron leader at the time) was allowed in a staff conference to more or less browbeat Dowding over his small numbers policy rather than big wing (Bader saw himself in charge of that). The reason for Dowding allowing himself to be browbeaten by a junior officer was ENIGMA, which Bader knew nothing about, but which Dowding was protecting.

2. General Ironside was, after Dunkirk - hardly the most glorious event in British military history - given the choice between a peerage and being made field marshal. He chose one, changed his mind, and got both! Dowding have organised to RAF to be in a position to win, the most difficult and most critical battle in British history and then having won it, was thrown out without a thank you and got no recognition at all.

That Dowding never protested about his treatment says a lot about the man.

[Adrian Roberts]

Dowding seems to have only flown operationally for the first few months of WW1.

A statement refuted in a later post on this thread which describes an incident during Dowding's time in charge of a fighter wing in 1916.

Ok, Dowding was in action in 1916, but the thread makes it clear that he was commanding a Bomber Wing. Colonels didn't fly in action regularly, but at least the account shows that he was willing to put himself in harm's way.

I have a picture of Mallory sitting behind a desk holding a model aircraft and his facial expression suggests a man of petulant ways.

...vindictive nature of some of the other personalities involved, particularly L-M.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that Leigh-Mallory was a particularly "nice" man; it has been suggested that his impatience led to his own demise, over-ruling his pilot's unease at flying over the Alps in poor weather.

Dowding......was thrown out without a thank you and got no recognition at all.

He was belatedly created a Baron - I'm sure I read that this was at the instigation of the King himself, overruling the RAF establishment.

That Dowding never protested about his treatment says a lot about the man.

Whatever his faults, a man of dignity.

Your mention of Park and Harris could also be expanded by adding Black Mike McEwen's name

Another that I forgot - Air Marshal Sir Arthur "Mary" Coningham, (the "Mary" was a corruption of "Maori") was an ace with 14 victories in WW1, many on the mediocre DH5. In WW2 he commanded the Desert Air Force, developing the tactics of Close Air Support, and later the 2nd Tactical Air Force. In 1948 he disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle, as a passenger in the Tudor airliner "Star Tiger"

Adrian

PS I can't make the quote function work either, and I'm doing what I always do

[FAAAEd]

Ok, Dowding was in action in 1916, but the thread makes it clear that he was commanding a Bomber Wing.

Aye but I think the important bit is that Dowding had come to recognise the importance of fighter defence and had a close association with Park who was a fighter man. L-M by contrast was somewhat stuck in his ways. As was Quinton Brand OIC 10 group who was also a strong advocate of close formation flying for fighter sections (flights) a tactic which cost the RAF much.

Colonels didn't fly in action regularly, but at least the account shows that he was willing to put himself in harm's way.

Indeed and thereby experience the strains of such operations, at that particular time, at first hand the better to be able to judge the justification for resting his fliers. A number of Colnels (and higher) did 'buy it', to use a contempory euphamism, some being mentioned in O'Connor's books.

He was belatedly created a Baron - I'm sure I read that this was at the instigation of the King himself, overruling the RAF establishment.

On 17tyh June 1942 the King raised the matter, with his Secretary Hardinge, of Dowding's promotion to Marshal of the Royal Air Force on retirement. The following day it was minuted that the King did not wish to pursue the suggestion. On 2nd June 1943 Dowding, by recommendation of Churchill, was bestowed the title of Baron of Bentley Priory.

PS I can't make the quote function work either, and I'm doing what I always do

As was I and again here with similar dire result. Most odd, some stray, invisible, CTRL character lurking within perhaps?

[SiegeGunner]

Aye but I think the important bit is that Dowding had come to recognise the importance of fighter defence and had a close association with Park who was a fighter man. L-M by contrast was somewhat stuck in his ways. As was Quinton Brand OIC 10 group who was also a strong advocate of close formation flying for fighter sections (flights) a tactic which cost the RAF much.

Indeed and thereby experience the strains of such operations, at that particular time, at first hand the better to be able to judge the justification for resting his fliers. A number of Colnels (and higher) did 'buy it', to use a contempory euphamism, some being mentioned in O'Connor's books.

On 17tyh June 1942 the King raised the matter, with his Secretary Hardinge, of Dowding's promotion to Marshal of the Royal Air Force on retirement. The following day it was minuted that the King did not wish to pursue the suggestion. On 2nd June 1943 Dowding, by recommendation of Churchill, was bestowed the title of Baron of Bentley Priory.

As was I and again here with similar dire result. Most odd, some stray, invisible, CTRL character lurking within perhaps?

The quote function seems to work for me. Thanks for this interesting and informative thread. Could you point me in the direction of an account of Keith Park's WW1 career?

Mick

[Adrian Roberts]

Aye but I think the important bit is that Dowding had come to recognise the importance of fighter defence and had a close association with Park who was a fighter man. L-M by contrast was somewhat stuck in his ways. As was Quinton Brand OIC 10 group who was also a strong advocate of close formation flying for fighter sections (flights) a tactic which cost the RAF much.

The difference between Dowding & L-M was that Dowding was willing to think outside the box, and accept new technology and kill a few sacred cows. This of course was one reason why he upset the establishment - many brilliant, prophetic thinkers have upset people by how they said what they said, e.g. Billy Mitchell in the USAAC. That Dowding nevertheless got to be C-in-C despite his unpopularity is a measure of his qualities and of how he clearly could not be ignored. Probably it was fortuituous for the country that he became C-in-C Fighter Command rather than CAS.

Quinton Brand had been a fighter ace in WW1, which shows that this did not automatically lead to being right about the use of of fighters in WW2. Park did not rely on past experience alone.

Speaking of Q-B - in contrast to my assertion of there being not many WW1 aces who became WW2 commanders, others seem to be cropping up! Bishop and Collishaw also achieved Air Rank in WW2, though we still have only Park who was a BofB commander.

Could you point me in the direction of an account of Keith Park's WW1 career?

For a very brief account, see www.theaerodrome.com and www.rafweb.org

At least one book has been published as a biography of Park, but I can't recall the title.

Adrian

[FAAAEd]

Could you point me in the direction of an account of Keith Park's WW1 career?

Mick

One of a number of Wikipedia entrys can be found at:

http://www.answers.com/topic/keith-park

which also cites a biography,

'Sir Keith Park, A Biography', by Vincent Orange.

Thanks for asking these questions as it has reminded me to look for such a book.

Quote mark-up working as it should now, must have been something lurking in those earlier posts.

[FAAAEd]

The difference between Dowding & L-M was that Dowding was willing to think outside the box,

Probably a question of being able, rather than willing, to think outside the box. L-M showed his inflexibility, as Sqd. Ldr. Brown states in his book, when aids could not pull him away from a station inspection and parade as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sped up The Channel. German military intelligence had assessed L-M as being 'a pedantic worker with a preference for administration'.

I oft' wonder what if L-M had been in charge of 11 Group? His relative seniority had ensured his being placed in charge of 12 Group because of its most likely taking the brunt of German air attacks - the fall of France not having been taken into account.

But this would be to speculate further in the wrong war WRT this Forum of course.

[FAAAEd]

which also cites a biography,

'Sir Keith Park, A Biography', by Vincent Orange.

Just seen this book cited in Brown as:

'Sir Keith Park', Vincent Orange. Methuen, 1984.

[AndyMacdonald]

Just seen this book cited in Brown as:

'Sir Keith Park', Vincent Orange. Methuen, 1984.

The Park book reads like a dog, although it's jammed with info. Buy it for the info, but not the literary experience. Briefly, Park was an NZ artillery subaltern on the Somme and was in action on 15.9.16.

Andy M

[FAAAEd]

The Park book reads like a dog, although it's jammed with info. Buy it for the info, but not the literary experience. Briefly, Park was an NZ artillery subaltern on the Somme and was in action on 15.9.16.

Andy M

Thanks for the warning. Turned up a blank at the library at the weekend but didnoy have time for a computer search, I'll do one on-line.