4Bn South Wales Borderers in Galipolli

[Bazezah]

Hi all,

I'm researching my wifes Great Uncle, 12995 Pte G. Williams. 4 Bn South Wales Borderers KIA 23 July 1915 prior to the assault on Siri Bair Ridge. I can find no mention of the 4Bn SWB on the GWF, apart from a Lt Col M T B Beresford of the 4Bn SWB who was the President of the FGCM of Sgt John Robins in December 1915.

If anyone can shed some light on the contrabution the 4Bn SWB made in Galipolli I would be More than grateful.

Regards Bazezah (My real name is Barry)

[Kath]

Barry,

Have you contacted the SWB Museum:

http://www.rrw.org.uk/regiment/index.htm

Kath.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Re Kath's link to http://www.rrw.org.uk/index.shtml

I recently had some correspondence with the curator concerning an SWB man in WWII and he was most helpful. Worth a try.

[michaeldr]

Barry,

From Ray Westlake's "British Regiments at Gallipoli"

page 84

"'..to Gallipoli (15th July 1915) Landed 'V' Beach, Helles then to Gully Beach. Strength – 26 officers, 875 other ranks. Moved forward up Gully Ravine to support line west of Twelve Tree Copse (16th). Relieved 6th Kings Own in front line – trenches H12, H12A, H12B, (17th). Distance from enemy recorded as between 150 and 15 yards. The Royal Dublin Fusiliers had recently been in action and their dead were noted all around the area. Relieved by the 5th Wiltshires (19th) and to Gully beach. Returned to front line (21st). Enemy attacked 39th Brigade on left (23rd) – 'B' Company opened fire driving Turkish flank driven back. Withdrew to Brigade reserve (25th) then to Mudros during night (30th). Casualties at Helles – 4 killed, 30 wounded. The dead included R.S.M. G. Halford."

regards

Michael

[Bazezah]

Kath and Andrew thank you, I have contacted the SWB Museum, prior to this post, and they were very helpful, and thank you Andrew for the book extract, I will try to get a copy.

Regards Barry

[Bryn]

2nd Lieutenants Donald Arthur Addams-Williams and Owen Sherwood Phillips, both of the 4th Battalion, South Wales Borderers, are buried in 7th Field Ambulance Cemetery, which is in the north of the Anzac sector. They died on the 13th and 21st of August respectively. Lieut-Colonel Franklin Macaulay Gillespie and 2nd Lieut. Leonard Gosse Cooper were killed on 9 August, Gillespie was buried in '39th Field Ambulance cemetery', and Cooper in '29th Field Ambulance cemetery', which is said to have been near the mouth of the Aghyl Dere, and so is probably, in fact, Aghyl Dere cemetery. Their graves have since been lost and those cemeteries no longer exist. However this means that 4Bn SWB was in the Anzac / Suvla area for a couple of weeks at the very least.

In all 8 officers of 4Bn SWB died at Gallipoli, all but one in the northern Anzac / Suvla sector; only one died at Helles.

It seems that 4Bn SWB were part of the General Cox's column that broke out of 'Old Anzac' beginning on 6 August - Bean states that they rushed a couple of Turkish trenches and captured Damakjelik Bair (Hill 60), and that 'the available records unfortunately contain nothing but the bare outlines of this admirable achievement.'

[Bazezah]

Bryn many thanks for the info.

You may be able to help, I have two conflicting stories about George Williams.

1. He was killed whilst in the line prior to the attempt to capture the Siri Bair Ridge.

2. He died of wounds whilst being evacuated to Alexandria.

In both cases he was buried at sea.

George is named on the Helles Memorial and, so I have been told, those who are named on the Helles Memorial were buried at sea.

Hope You can help.

Regards Barry.

Andrew I have managed to order Ray Westlakes book.

[The Plummed Goose]

Dear Barry,

The 4th/SWB was part of the 13th Division who took over the left section of the front (Gully Ravine/spur) from the 29th Division (who went for a well deserved rest) in mid-July. This short visit to Helles of the 13th Division (they left again at the end of July to reappear in Anzac where they were attached to the A & NZ Army Corps) was to make them (the "new boys") accustomed to "trenchlife" in view of the upcoming "big one" : the August offensive.

Aspinall-Oglander does not mention any big activity around the 23rd July in Helles (apart from an alert due to rumours of an upcoming Turkish attack) but as Michael quoted Westlake there seemed to have been an attack on the (39th) brigade "next door" ... G. Williams could have been killed in that action if his battalion was on the flank of the 40th brigade of which the 4th SWB were part. (don't have any info on that).

Are you sure about "buried at sea" in BOTH cases ... Being mentioned on the Helles monument does not necessarily mean buried at sea, anybody without a known grave is mentioned there.

eric

[Bazezah]

Hi Eric,

The buried at sea was a quote from the SWB Museum " Most of those commemorated on the Helles Memorial are those who were buried at sea having died whilst being evacuated from Gallopli to Alexandria"

Yet on George's Medal Roll he is shown as KIA 22 July 1915.

It's all very confusing, but we will "Soldier" on. Thank you for your input.

Regards Barry

[Bryn]

Barry,

What you need is for someone to look your great-uncle up in the original CWGC register for the Helles memorial. This would tell you whether he was killed in action or died of wounds (or illness) at sea.

The online version has been 'PC-ed' by just using the extremely bland and unhelpful 'died' instead of the original information.

The chances are that he died at sea, but British soldiers who died anywhere on the peninsula and have no known grave because their graves were lost, or they never had a grave in the first place - or were buried at sea - have their names inscribed on that memorial.

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

if he is shown as KIA 22 July 1915, he must have been buried on the peninsula,

i recommend that you should contact the commonwealth war graves comission as to whether he was killed in action or died of wounds

regards

tuna

[Bazezah]

Thanks to both Bryn and Tuna,

I will contact CWGC to see if they can give more information.

Would anyone have copies of the War Diaries for the 4th Bn SWB for the period 15 July 1915 to 30th July 1915 that they would be willing to to e-mail me ?

Again thank you

Regards Barry

[Bryn]

It does not necessarily follow that because he died on 22 July 1915 he must be buried on the peninsula, or at least that he has a known grave. If he was in fact KIA, he may have been buried and the grave subsequently lost. My money would be on his dying of wounds and being buried at sea from a hospital ship.

Some contributors to this forum have the original CWGC registers for the Helles memorial. Check in the 'Document repository' section.

[michaeldr]

Quote from Barry: would anyone have copies of the War Diaries for the 4th Bn SWB for the period 15 July 1915 to 30th July 1915

The extract which I gave you above in post No.4 is, as I have said, from Ray Westlake's work. Ray examined all of the war diaries and regimental histories when he was writing his book and I doubt if the originals contain any more details than he has already provided. One interesting point regarding how events are recorded in War Diaries and/or Regimental Histories is that the RSM [G. Halford] referred to died in Egypt on 12th August 1915, so the ref 'Killed' is a little misleading since he appears to have actually 'died of wounds'

Best of luck with your research

Michael D.R.

[Bazezah]

Thank you again Michael

Regards Barry

[Bazezah]

Hi Eric,

Point of interest from the CWGC (which you proberbly know) that there are panels on the Helles Memorial for those who died or were buried at sea in Gallipoli waters.

The wealth of knowledge on this site is amazing, from a question regarding 4Bn SWB I have been able to build up a picture of my Great Uncles military service from his enlistment in August 1914 to his death on 23 July 1915.

The links have been helpful and I would like to thank all of you who have contributed, and if anyone else can help in my "Quest" my thanks to you.

Regards Barry

[MartinWills]

Pte Williams appears in Part 11 othe Helles Memorial register Volumes.

All the men listed on the Helles memorial have no known grave. Only a minority of these were buried at sea. The open unmarked spaces in Gallipoli cemeteries contain the graves of many of these "unknown" burials.

To quote in precis from the registers:

Part 1 covers 1,390 men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines who fell on the peninsula

Parts 2-11 name 15,064 names of men from the UK and Australia who fell on the peninsula

Part 12 covers 1,048 men from the UK and Australia who were Lost at Sea in the vessels "Royal Edward"; "Mercian"; "Hythe" and "South-land"

Part 13 contains the names of 1,733 soldiers from the UK and Australia who died and were buried at sea after evacuation from the peninsula.

Part 14 contains the names of 1,529 soldiers of the Indian Army who fell on the peninsula.

The entry in Part 11 (men who fell on the peninsula) reads:

WILLIAMS, Pte George, 12995. 4th Bttn, South Wales Borderers, 23 July 1915. Age 30. Son of Mrs Elizabeth Preece, of Belle House, Mordiford, Hereford.

Presumably his mother had remarried at some point? It would seem fairly clear he died and was either lost or buried on the peninsula.

The mother site (The Long Long Trail) to this forum, linked at the top of the page should fill out more information about the 4th SWB and their Great War resume.

Regards,

Martin

[Bazezah]

Hi Martin,

Thank you, everything is starting to fall into place.

Pte G Williams's mother had remarried, to my wifes Grandfather. Although not related as such he is still refered too as Great Uncle George.

Regards Barry