Tempted to bid

[Jim Strawbridge]

A small group of items are for sale at auction and I am tempted to bid. They are a victory medal, a photograph and an Education Certificate. The victory medal is named to a 2nd air mechanic, R.F.C. The photograph shows someone in leathers, a balaclava and flying goggles. The education certificate is dated 1919 with the same name as on the medal. But I have two queries. If the recipient of the medal was in the R.A.F. in 1919 should not his victory medal show R.A.F. irrespective of the fact that he had joined the R.F.C. ? Secondly would a 2nd air mechanic have been airborne in the normal course of his work?

[welshdoc]

The medal would be named to RAF if he was with them after the RNAS and RFC amalgamated. I have a RNAS trio with the star RNAS and the pair RAF. You can also get RFC pairs Ive got a single victory . I think the rank air mechanic is ground crew so not a flier. Whether he ever went up in aplane hence the goggles is anybodies guess , he may have been in a test flight etc. As its RAF the cost should be much lower than RFC the PICs etc add quite a lot though. Gareth

Just re read your post , realised your medal is to RFC sorry I missed that.

[medals1976]

Hello Jim, with reference to your comments I am watching the item in question myself. I have checked all sources and can find no evidence of the medal recipient being aircrew. There were many 2 air men whom were killed in action as observers during WW1, I even own a medal to a corporal pilot so it is possible. I think the photo of the recipient is from the 1920s and he may therefore have served in India or Iraq post WW1. Hope this helps.

Mike.

[PhilB]

McCudden started as an Air Mechanic! Phil B

[Jim Strawbridge]

Thank you all for your comments. Unlikely, but it is possible that he came out of the RFC before the amalgamation and signed up with the R.A.F. as a career afterwards. That would explain a 1919 education certificate as he was trying to better himself and perhaps a much latter photograph as a flyer.

[ANDREW JUKES]

jim,

the lot as listed. including all the bits with it. was purchased at a local auction approx 2 months ago. i was told by the auctioner who i trust. that the lot was direct from the late recipients family.

i did not buy the lot as i spent a kings ransome that day on a lot of nice bits

i am not the vendor of the e-bay lot. i do however live close to the vendor who is a true gent.

hope that helps?

cheers

andrew

[Grovetown]

Secondly would a 2nd air mechanic have been airborne in the normal course of his work?

Hi Jim

There are a good few memoirs that mention AMs going aloft; from test flights, joy rides and relocations to acting/ deputising as air gunners and observers in extremis. I wouldn't have any concerns about this element. There is one instance of an AM as qualified pilot (whose name escapes); and it wasn't until later in the war that observer, that wasn't officer, was a serjeant ranked position.

Can't answer the medal bit though.

Best wishes,

Johnny.

[Starlight]

Hi,

My grandfather started off as a 1st Class air mechanic. He often went up in a two seater in a testing capacity (wireless checking) or on joyflights with the pilots he worked with. Several of his associates in the squadron who were 2nd Class Air Mechanics eventually flew as observers without changing rank as did some corporals, and his best friend was promoted from 1st Class air mechanic to corporal (when he trained on the squadron and flew as an observer) to sergeant before being sent back to England for flight training, eventually flying as a pilot with the rank of Flight Sergeant. There were even army privates who flew as observers.

Regards

Steve

[Starlight]

Re my earlier response, as a matter of interest I still have my grandfather's leather flying balaclava which was obvioulsy well used, though he never learned to fly.

[Flyvulcan]

Air Mechanics definitely flew as aircrew, certainly as Observers. Check out Patrick Wilsons website about 100Sqn. In his website is a full scanned copy of the book "Annals of 100Sqn" which gives a detailed account of 100Sqns activities in WW1. It lists all ops carried out by the Sqn and lists crews, objective, results etc. You will see in the Ops section that the majority of the Observers at the commencement of operations in April 1917 were 2nd Air Mechanics. Perhaps you may be lucky enough to find the name of the person who is the topic of this thread in that book.

Dave

[per ardua per mare per terram]

"If the recipient of the medal was in the R.A.F. in 1919 should not his victory medal show R.A.F. irrespective of the fact that he had joined the R.F.C.?"

Medals were impressed with the rank and unit details for when men were in the war zones. I've yet to find medals with RFC as the unit, to men who had left the RFC/RAF other than for death and injury. Men called back to the UK for air defence before 1/4/18 would be one example. If he returned or went to France on 12/11/18 or later, it was no longer deemed a war zone so he could take courses without it affecting his medals.

"Secondly would a 2nd air mechanic have been airborne in the normal course of his work?"

In 1916 (and his number is rfrom 1916) they used 2/AM as air gunners. Other AM went up too, other reasons were to make sure they did a good job, the prospect of being in the air when the repair was put under strain increased diligence don't ya know? The problem is whether its recorded on his RAF service record if he was out of theatre.

See Jefford, C. G. Wing Commander Observers and Navigators and other Non-Pilot Aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF (ISBN: 1840372753)

He could be posing in someone else's kit or could be a photo of a friend.

Edited 8 July , 2006 by per ardua per mare per terram

[Jim Strawbridge]

"If the recipient of the medal was in the R.A.F. in 1919 should not his victory medal show R.A.F. irrespective of the fact that he had joined the R.F.C.?"

Medals were impressed with the rank and unit details for when men were in the war zones. I've yet to find medals with RFC as the unit, to men who had left the RFC/RAF. Men called back to the UK for air defence before 1/4/18 would be one example. If he returned or went to France on 12/11/18 or later, it was no longer deemed a war zone so he could take courses without it affecting his medals.

Not all medal recipients were in war zones or overseas for that matter. Surely if a man had been invalided out of the RFC before 1/4/18 his medals would show as R.F.C. The matter of the 1919 dated education certificate was mentioned really to show that he was serving in the R.A.F. at that date and that he may (or may not) have had continuous service. Nothing to do with the medals other than helping to deduce if they should have been impressed R.F.C. or R.A.F.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

All Victory Medal receipients had to be in a war zone and an overseas one, thats the medal you're interested in. I did use the war zone tag a bit loosely. The British War Medal was different, as it could be issued for service in the UK for those that qualified (many RNAS got theirs that way), but the UK was a war zone subject to bombings, shellings and required air defence.

I did not dispute that he could have been invalided out, I just raised another reason that his medal could have R.F.C. on it. The certificate does have relevence for deducing his service, it is far more likely he had continuing service than he was invalided out. In 1919 the RAF were discharging men by the tens if not hundreds of thousends, I think he would have to been exceptional to get back in and then I'd expect him to be more than a 2AM.

I have a broken RFC 1914 Star trio to a 3 digit number, all named RFC as he was serving in the UK after 1/4/18.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

"Victory Medal [issued to those] who actually served on the establishment of a unit in a theatre of war." Quoted from Major NW Poulsom 'A Catalogue of Campaign and Independence Medals issued During the Twentieth Cenrury to the British Army.'