Medal card

[Guest Graeme0]

Attached is my grandfather's medal roll card...... thanks to your excellent site I think I've worked out what most of it means but I'm not an expert.....

He starts off in the Grenadier Guards then is transferred to the Royal Engineers - how would that work? Would he have requested the transfer?

Was there any particular criteria for joining the guards - I'm surprised he didn't just go into a local Surrey regiment.

And what does the small s,c over the rank mean?

I gather he was entitled to three campaign medals, plus he entered the war in Western Europe on October 7, 1915, before conscription started - would that mean he was already in the army or volunteered after the war began?

Is there anything else I've missed?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.............

My grandad survived the war, unscathed as far as I know, but I never realised what a hero he was. But then they were all heros....

[Stebie9173]

Your grandafther would probably have joined up near the start of the war, I would think. Most of the Volunteers first went overseas from mid to late 1915.

He would probably have transferred to the Royal Engineers due to wounds or sickness. It was unusual for a man to transfer out of the infantry except to a different infantry unit unless wounded. His RE number is a Waterways and Railways (WR) one, though I haven't seen a number that low before (the 53, that is)

Steve.

[Guest Graeme0]

Your grandafther would probably have joined up near the start of the war, I would think. Most of the Volunteers first went overseas from mid to late 1915.

He would probably have transferred to the Royal Engineers due to wounds or sickness. It was unusual for a man to transfer out of the infantry except to a different infantry unit unless wounded. His RE number is a Waterways and Railways (WR) one, though I haven't seen a number that low before (the 53, that is)

Steve.

That's very interesting, considering that after the war he went to work for a water company in the Black Mountains!

By the way, why does he have two numbers for his RE service..... and why is it listed twice?

thanks for your help

[Stebie9173]

Several possibilities.

One: He was serving with the Waterways And Railways Department when all the men in the department were issued with new numbers around late 1917, early 1918. He could have already been serving with the W&R as number 306476. I don't know enough about the WR numbers to say for certain but I imagine a number as low as 53 would have been issued on day 1 of the renumbering.

Two: He went into the RE with his WR number and then transferred to the standard RE and was given a number frim the standard series.

Three: He transferred to the standard RE, then later transferred to the W&R and was given a new number.

Confusing aint it?

Basically the Royal Engineers was spilt into two. The Signallers and Field companies kept their old numbers, whilst Waterways and Railways changed numbers. They were all still Royal Engineers, however.

Steve.

[Terry_Reeves]

It's a clerical error or an incomplete number. The lowest WR numbers start with five digits.

Terry Reeves

[GavinH]

And what does the small s,c over the rank mean?

I think this is actually 'Sjt', ie serjeant

Regards

Gavin

[mmm45]

Greameo

Hi i had a Coldstream Guardsman transfer to the RE as he had Mining skills and he became a tunneler with 170 RE Coy

The Guards Archives still held his service record until his transfer in 1915 maybe worth getting in touch with the Grenadier Guards Regimental Archive at Birdcage Walk London its amazing the stuff logged on the service records.

Ady

[Guest Graeme0]

Thanks chaps this is all great stuff..... I'm planning to get in touch with the Guards archive to see if they have at least some of his records........

[SteveE]

It's a clerical error or an incomplete number. The lowest WR numbers start with five digits.

Terry Reeves

Sorry but I have to disagree. By coincidence I was searching for some six digit WR/ numbers in the London Gazette today and came across these five numbers in London Gazette #31370 (I've cross-checked them with the MICs and they say the same)

WR/1 Sjt. (A./Coy./S.M.) Martin, S., 302nd Rd. Con. Coy, (Dorset).

WR/4 Cpl. (A./Coy./S.M.) Bragg, J. B., 340th Rd. Con. Co. (Chelston).

WR/10 Sjt. Wilson, G. (Kirk Yetholm).

WR/101 Coy./Q.M.Sjt. (A./Coy./S.M.) Draper, H. J. ([E] Chatham).

WR/107 Sjt. Hawkins, A. C., 214th A.T. Coy. (Gillingham).

I've no idea of their significance but as you can see WR/ numbers can be lower than five digits.

Regards

Steve

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I agree with the 'Sjt'=serjeant. All that free space and they shove it up there!

[Stebie9173]

As explanation as to what it's doing there:

The Victory and British War Medals were engraved with the highest substantive rank attained and the first unit served with in an operational theatre of war.

In this case, when he went overseas he was a Private in the Grenadier Guards, by the end of the war he was a Sergeant. Therefore Sjt. and G. Gds. engraved on the medals. The x's denote items to put on the medals when it wasn't 100% clear to the engraver. There is another very little x by the VM reference.

His 1914-15 Star would read "21369 PTE. W. C. SPREADBOROUGH, G. GDS." and his VM/BWM "21369 SJT. W. C. SPREADBOROUGH, G. GDS."

Steve.

[royalredcross]

His medals can't be named Guards. The MIC clearly shows that they were issued off a RE roll. Has anyone actually looked at the medal roll. Remember, the MIC is merely a finding aid to the actual medal roll which is the true record.

Norman

[SteveE]

His medals can't be named Guards. The MIC clearly shows that they were issued off a RE roll. Has anyone actually looked at the medal roll. Remember, the MIC is merely a finding aid to the actual medal roll which is the true record.

Norman

I think you'll find that what Stebie has stated is indeed correct. Despite being issued off the Royal Engineers rolls they will in fact have the details of the unit, in this case Grenadier Guards, that he first served overseas with.

Steve

[Terry_Reeves]

SteveE

Thanks for your post. I'll check the medalsrolls next time I get the opportunity. I will be happy to be proved wrong however. If nothing else, it will add a bit more knowledge to the numbering of the IWT Road Construction Companies.Equally, it may well complicate matters! Take a look at the medal cards of JT Williams and Vincent Bootle. Both transferred from the infantry and both were at one stage issued with the number WR/113. The same happens for William Copperthwaite and Thomas Hughes both of whom held the number WR/ 126. There are also quite a number of these low WR numbers,, which given the prefix, obviously allocates them to a specific RE branch and also follows a sequence , but apparently not attributed to anyone on the MIC's. These may be omissions of course which would be revealed in the medal roll.

There seems to be a problem with the last man in your list however. 214 Army Troops Company was raised in Coventry in spring 1915 and remained an AT Company throughout the war, with it's own particular number block. It had only six deaths throughout the war. He may have transferred to that unit of course, but would have received a new number, although not one of the original number block. It could also be the case that his new number had simply not caught up with him by the time that the LG entry was published. The other possibilty is that he was attached for a short while and of course he would then have retained his WR number. 2I4's War Diary is pretty good with names, so hopefully that can resolved.

All good stuff.

Terry Reeves

[royalredcross]

Whilst I would agree that the TFWM is usually named to the unit the man was in when he hit France, I do not believe this was the case with the BMW/Victory pair. Admittedly, most of my work has been with the women's services, but I have always found that the medals are named according to the roll which is written on the MIC. In this case, if the medals were named to Guards, how could the original entry in the roll be found from the information on the card ? The card refers to a RE roll. I don't think it matters that he MAY have first gone to France with the Guards (but there is no proof of that). It was the RE which submitted his name for medals on one of its rolls, not the Guards. I would still be interested in knowing what the roll says. Pity the medals are not around ... that would settle it !!

Norman

[SteveE]

Norman

If a soldier served with more than one regiment/corps then, administratively, his medal entitlement was always listed with the LAST such regiment/corps that he served with (in this instance Royal Engineers). The BWM/Victory Medal Roll would have the details of all his previous units and his medals would be engraved with the FIRST unit he served overseas with (in this case Grenadier Guards).

I don't collect medals as such but can certainly state a couple of examples of family medal groups that prove the point being made.

GGFather served with Royal Fusiliers and then Labour Corps, medal entitlement is listed on Labour Corps Rolls but medals are marked with his Royal Fusiliers details.

GGUncle served with Green Howards and then Royal Defence Corps, again medal entitlement is listed on Royal Defence Corps Rolls but medals are marked with his Yorks. Regiment details.

In neither instance is there any reference to their service in the Royal Fusiliers/Green Howards Medal Rolls as administratively they were no longer members of that Regiment.

I (ashamedly) know nothing of the way women's services were recorded so this may indeed differ to that of the men but you will find the BWM and Victory medals are marked as indicated above.

Steve

[GavinH]

Steve is correct. The medals would be named to the Grenadier Guards. All of the BWM and Victory Medals I've seen have been named to the unit the soldier was with when he qualified for entitlement, regardless of the roll they were issued from. The medal rolls include a column giving details of the 'Unit previously served with. Regtl. No. and Rank in same on entry into theatre of war'. It was these details that were impressed on the medals.

Regards

Gavin

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The only exception that I've seen is people who transferred into the RAF from army units. They get RAF on the pair; sometimes duplicates were issued by their original unit and usually those were returned.

[Guest Graeme0]

Thanks for this gentlemen....... this has helped me quite a lot....

But now the $64,000 question (or maybe that should be in Euros these days!)....

I'm fairly certain that the person on the medal card above is my grandfather, but I won't be sure until I get my hands on his records.... unfortunately we don't have his medals and apart from the medal roll, I had no idea what regiment he was in.

What is the liklihood of my grandfather having gone through the first world war as a soldier and not being on the medal roll.... and what is the liklihood of him not having served in a combat zone?

He would have been 29 at the outbreak of the war... and as far was I know was fit and healthy...

[Guest Graeme0]

Just heard back from the Grenadier Guards......

"We do not have his file here as this is sent to his new Regiment on transfer. You will need to write direct to the Royal Engineers.............."

So I guess that leaves me with the Burnt Records at Kew