Knowledge of ATATURK !

[JOSTURM]

I'm working in Istanbul this week with a Turkish team from my company, and learning a little about the hero of modern Turkey, whose photograph adorns pretty much every building, - ATATURK, otherwise known as Mustafa Kemal.

I have to confess I didn't know that much about him, and now know a little more as follows:

Born in 1881

Commanded Troops at Gallipoli

Died young aged 57 in 1938 from cirrhosis of the liver.

Started drink heavy alcohol in the army in the winters to keep warm and got used to it

Heavy smoker too.

Did marry late in life, but divorced.

Adopted 2/3 children, one of whom became the first Turkish Female Pilot Ace.

One adopted child still lives.

Kemal's genealogy seems shrouded in mystery and some claimants of being relatives have come forward but their claims have not been confirmed.

Have been told there is a good biography by an Englishman about Ataturk ?

If anyone has anything to add to this, it could be an interesting thread.

Regards

Peter

[Desmond7]

Some interesting perspectives on the birth and growth of Turkish secular nationalism included in that Scottish Bloke historian's new series.

Niall Ferguson - war of the Worlds.

That's it by the way.

Good viewing for self-argument!

[The Plummed Goose]

Dear Peter,

Hope you are enjoying your time in Istanbul and if you have time you should definitely come to Gallipoli.

For me -being a Belgian- when I first came to Turkey Atatürk was just another leader -had spent quite some time in the 1980ies in "Yougoslavia" where one could find a picture of Tito wherever you went-.

After a while in Turkey, it actually annoyed me to see him EVERYWHERE in busts, pictures, painting, statue ... This type a glorification is not really my style. I bought the book "Rebirth of a Nation" by Lord Kinross (a must for everybody who wants to understand this man), read it and my opinion had changed ... but I remained critical though as his means to obtain something are far from democratic. It is the 15 years of living in this country that made me realise the importance of this man, him aims and what he realised in such a short period of time and most importantly that his means my not have been democratic but the result he was looking was. In his years as leader of the country, he was a dictator but one in the style of Cato, one in the real latin sense of the word. It was clear that it -dictatorship- was the only way to lay the foundations for a modern Turkey.

Today I consider myself a Kemalist and wouldn't mind giving up some of my "democratic priviliges" for a second Atatürk ... Would certainly not do any harm to the country and its people.

And as for the glorification ... I moved office twice in the last 15 years and the first thing that goes on the wall, before any other decoration, is a picture of Atatürk ... Guess what is going on the wall first when I open my hotel in November ??

eric

[frev]

Peter - sounds like you have a great job!

A while back, I started the biography 'Ataturk' by Andrew Mango - though he's not exactly an Englishman - he was born in Turkey, but moved to England in his early 20's.

His book was published by John Murray (Publishers), London in 1999 - there's been various reprints since.

I'm only up to page 90 (666 pages) - it takes a bit of concentration, and I keep getting sidetracked - but I'm determined to get back to it now!

About all I can add for now is that Mustafa was born in Salonica and his father also died young - age 47. His 3 older siblings died in childhood, leaving him as the eldest. When his mother remarried c1898, Mustafa moved out of the family home.

He joined the Society of Union and Progress some time before Feb 1908.

He assumed the leadership of the Turkish nationalist movement in 1919, and became the first president of the new republic in 1923. The surname of Ataturk was officially adopted by him in 1934 when surnames were introduced by law. His version regarding his second name of Kemal, is that it was given to him by his maths teacher, another version is that he chose it himself. Either way it was accepted to distinguish him from another student with the same name. [Kemal in Ottoman Turkish means 'perfection']

Cheers, Frev

[Eceabat]

I agree with Eric that Kinross’s book is very good, I recommend it. Another biography, at times more critical, is called Grey Wolf, by a chap called Armstrong. An interesting read and the first edition was brought out while Ataturk was still alive. He had it read to him as he couldn’t speak English and, despite the criticisms, approved its publication in Turkey. It was only after his death it was banned, though an edited version is now available in Turkish. About Ataturk’s only comment was that Armstrong hadn’t listed all his faults. The mark of a democrat not a dictator.

Peter, Ataturk did not just adopt two or three children, the figure was more like about 25, all girls. One did become Turkey’s first woman pilot (not ace) and Istanbul’s second airport is named after her.

I am sure that when Eric opens his hotel the first thing that goes up will be his picture of Ataturk, there is a law requiring it.

Cheers

Bill

[AltayAtli]

Peter, thanks for starting this thread. As a Turk, I certainly have something to say.

Let me tell you how a Turk grows up. At the age of 7, when u start with the primary school, you begin to see his face everywhere. You memorise his life, you memorise his quotes. He becomes an icon, he becomes a God. But the thing is, you dont really understand what he was and what he did.

You spend your school days like this. Later, as you read more and as you grow up, you began to understand him. you understand what he did, you understand how important it was and thats when you begin to truly admire him and apreciate what he did.

WHat Eric has written is beautiful and I agree with every word of it. In today's Turkey, when surrounded with many problems, both interior and exterior, the key to find a solution is to think how he would react and what he would do if he were alive. He never wanted to become a God, he wanted the Turks to understand what he was doing and follow his footsteps. He never wanted his statues ereceted all over Turkey and everything named after him, but he wanted his ideals to be embraced by his fellow citizens of all generations. When we can truly do this, Turkey will be a much better place to live and he will truly be able to rest in peace.

Some brief biographical information can also be found at my web site: http://www.turkeyswar.com/whoswho/ataturk/...ustafakemal.htm

Cheers,

Altay

[Jonathan Saunders]

Regarding his military career I would just add that I believe he had an instinctive genius for the battlefield.

[Nikolay]

Ataturk lived in Sofia for more than a year between Fall of 1913 and beginning of 1915 as military attachee. He spoke perfect Bulgarian, was quite popular in Sofia Society and had many friends, including General Stilian Kovachev, against whom he fought at Bulair during the Balkan war. Tzar Ferdinand who highly estimated him, presented him with a silver tobacco cit, which Ataturk used all his life.

As Bulgarian I will add that he was one of the biggest supporters of the peace and friendship between the two nations with such an uneasy past. A great statesman who left a profound mark on his country and the region as well.

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

While I have no argument that Ataturk made a great contribution to pushing Turkey into a position of some modernity, the cult worship of him on this thread illustrates all the down sides of his being.

Let me give you an example.

Turkish army scholarship is controlled by the General Staff and unless you are an arsekisser, you don't get access to records. Research must by definition lead to the praise of the wisdom found in the General Staff or it doesn't happen at all. The result is a series of banal texts which are fulsome of praise for Ataturk and damning of everyone else. They are very sad works indeed with little historical or probative value. The more Turkish texts I have read, the less impressed am I with their mindset which is positively antediluvian.

So let's see the areas of Turkish military history that lands a person into gaol as part of this "free speech" and research.

1. How many authors have been allowed access to military files to reconstruct and tell the tale of the first holocaust in history - the slaughter of the Armenians? Unless this is covered over or characterised as a defence of the state against those sneaky Armenians who in partnership with the Russians tried to destroy the Ottoman Empire, there are none.

2. How many books have been produced with access to the records held by the General Staff that deal with the Turkish Army's role in suppressing the Kurds? None. Plenty exist detailing how sneaky the Kurds are determined not to become Anatolian Turks and persist in undermining the state established by Ataturk.

These are just two examples of the dearth of scholarship allowed as a consequence of the cult of personality. Heck, even some folks reckon that it would do us some good to have this sort of discipline. Fellers, I gotta tell you, this web site would not exist under those circumstances.

Anyway, that is enough from me. Back to my iconoclastic ivory tower.

Cheers

Bill

[RHLV]

Interesting book on Ataturk

Jefferson and Ataturk: Political Philosophies

Garret Ward Sheldon

Published by Peter Land in 2000

ISBN #0820449776

Interesting take on the political views of 2 men who would seem to have little in common and lived 200 years apart, but who faced much the same situation as political leaders. Worth a read, but Sheldon can be kinda turgid.

Rich

BTW Erickson's Ordered to Die gives a different look at the Armenian problem, but it's not central to the book's thesis so takes only a few pages.

R

[Borden Battery]

Here are some websites on Turkey from the CEF Study Group. Borden Battery

Turkey in the First World War

This intelligent website adds the Turkish perspective in the Great War. The presentation is based on several Turkish resources and will be of interest to researchers. The website is organized into the following elements with nested sub-grouping and includes: Prelude to War, Campaigns, Aftermath, Chronology, Army, Navy, Aviation, Home Front, Economy, Who's Who, Documents and Featured Articles. Based on the clean format, this site is capable of adding more material with quick access. A few areas are still under construction. Some images do not appear under Mozilla and this site is best viewed with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.0+. There is also the start of a small discussion forum [Yahoo]. Well worth visiting.[June 2006]

http://www.turkeyswar.com/

Medals, Orders & Decorations of the Ottoman Empire

The study of Ottoman medals, orders and decorations offers an insight into the declining years of the empire. The first known Ottoman medal dates from 1730, but it wasn't until Napoleon's invasion of Egypt that the first wearable medal was established. The vast majority of Ottoman orders and medals were created in the 19th century, as the Empire struggled to modernize and fought to retain its distant territories and diverse people. These decorations are symbols of the fierce pride, the fading glory and the inevitable fragmentation of this ancient regime. [May 2006]

http://www.turkishmedals.net/

The Gallipoli Campaign

This website provides a chronological summary of the Gallipoli campaign with a patriotic Turkish perspective. The site is divided into some of the following elements: Before the Campaign, Naval Attack, Air Assault, Results, includes photographs, an extensive bibliography of Turkish and English texts and some short but personal memoirs of some of the aged veteran Turkish soldiers. Again, a different perspective on the campaign. [June 2006]

http://www.canakkale.gen.tr/eng/engindex.html

Tpr William Edward (Billy) Sing, DCM, Croix de Guerre

Trooper Billy Sing was an ace Australian sniper with Australian Fifth Light Horse Regiment who is credited with 150 Turkish kills. To the Anzacs in the trenches he was "The Assassin". The site provides a short history of his actions at Gallipoli including a recorded duel with a Turkish sniper. [April 2006]

http://www.lighthorse.org.au/Pershist/billsing.htm

Australian War Memorial - Gallipoli Mapping

This high quality website contains landing maps, cemetery maps, Turkish maps and Trench maps. The presentation techniques are highly innovative and should be viewed. Quality of this website is exceptional - all other government websites should look at the techniques used on this site. Highly recommended. [May 2005]

http://www.awm.gov.au/gmaps/landing/index.asp

George Eastman House - Still Photograph Archive

This part of a larger photographic website contains an index and access to 510 selected images from Turkey and soldiers of the Ottoman Empire just prior to and during the Great War. [Dec 2005]

http://www.geh.org/ar/chus/turkey/chusseau-tur_idx00001.html

[The Plummed Goose]

Dear Bill,

I do not really understand what the Kurdish and Armenians have to do with the original idea of this tread which is Atatürk. I will not make any further comments for risk of this tread being removed which would be a pity.

eric

[Eceabat]

Hi Bill,

I rather agree with Eric that you have strayed from the original topic of this thread, which was Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. I know of a number very good Turkish works, sadly not translated into English, dealing with the Gallipoli Campaign and the First World War, that have made good use of official records and of privately held or published documents, whose authors and the contents of which would belie your "arselicker" comment.

While the official histories of the First World War were indeed produced by the Turkish General Staff’s historical unit, this does not preclude other research and publications, some of which take a very different tack from the official position.

As a journalist and historian living here in Turkey, I know full well that at times it is difficult, and indeed at times impossible, to obtain access to information held at the official level. However, I have never heard of a researcher being gaoled for trying to gain access to official records, as you have contended.

Without trying to politicise this thread, (apologies to the mods if I have gone to far) I do feel that you have strayed somewhat from the plot, especially when moving from events of World War One straight into the ongoing Kurdish conflict. I would say this has little to do with the cult of personality surrounding Ataturk, which does exist in Turkey but was fostered by others following his death rather than by the man himself.

I am neither an apologist for Turkish policy nor its history, and I have had enough run ins with Turkish officialdom in the past over issues pertaining to the developments on the Peninsula and other matters. Turkey past and present is not perfect, but then no country to my mind can make such a claim. Ataturk himself made no such claim, quite the contrary in fact. If this thread is to continue, (and long may it do so) let us concentrate on the man, good, bad and indifferent, and not policy that was made after his death.

Here endeth the (considered) rant.

Bill Sellars

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

i think the greatness o ataturk is that he implemented the concept o the new turkish state in very unfavorable circumstances,but alas that you cannae see his greatness in the details o the lives o many turks, for they still wanna live wi those rules and theories o an arab sheik and the interpretations o generations o lazy

regards

tuna

[swatt9r]

A very good book for those unwilling to wade through Kinross' 'Ataturk' or the other histories, is 'Birds Without Wings' by Louis de Bernieres. Published by Vintage in 2004, ISBN 0-099-47898-6. It deals with the religious and nationalist issues that affect the Muslims, Armenians, Greeks and Christians of a small Turkish town in the first 20 years of 20th century. It contains the best precis of Kemal's life that I've read and covers Gallipoli. The dedication says, ' ...to the memory of my maternal grandfather, Arthur Kenneth Smithells, of Nelson Battalion, the Royal Naval Division, who was severely wounded at Gallipoli, and in whose steps I trod while researching part of this novel'. It is an absorbing read.

Stewart