Please decode

[Guest KevinEndon]

Can you tell me what this MIC is saying especially the bit that says either RITA OR PUTA

Also is he entitled to the clasp.

Kevin

[Bombadier]

Kevin

I think that it reads Retd (ie returned)

He was awarded a 14 Star trio and a Silver War Badge

I believe he should be entitled to clasp and roses as these are not always mentioned on the MIC. The medal roll may have more information.

Nigel

[ajsmith]

Kev

I read the Rita/Puta bit as Retd, so maybe returned (Kings Regulations 1743), though the squiggly brackets seem to imply that this only applies to his BWM and Victory Medal, which is a bit strange. I tend to assume when it just says 14 before the Star entry that he was entitled to a clasp. I'll get back to you if I have any further inspirations.

all the best

[ajsmith]

Kevin

the regulation

KR 1743: "Medals which, at the end of 10 years, still remain

unclaimed, will be sent to the India Office (if granted for Indian Service),

or to the deputy director of ordnance stores, Royal Dockyard (Medal

Branch), Woolwich (if granted for other service) to be broken up."

I forgot to say that ADT means amendment or adjustment.

[Paul Nixon]

I tend to assume when it just says 14 before the Star entry that he was entitled to a clasp.

That's a wrong assumption actually. He would have been entitled to the clasp if he was under fire between 5th August 1914 and 22nd November 1914. Men arriving overseas after that date (or even en route on the 22nd), did not qualify.

[ajsmith]

Paul

thanks for that, of course you're absolutely correct. He would have received a 1914 Star but may not have been under fire; in which case no clasp.

all the best

[Guest KevinEndon]

No clasp but a S.W.B. mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Paul Nixon]

No clasp but a S.W.B. mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

All that the swb tells you is that he was discharged as physically unfit for war service (due to either sickness or wounds). That sickness (or wounds) could have happened outside the qualifying period for the bar. There's no way of telling that unless the appropriate papers in his service record survive.

The other point to note is that men had to claim the bar to their 1914 Star if they had been under fire between 5th August and 22nd November 1914. There were a lot of men who were actually entitled to it but didn't claim it, either through ignorance or because, in the supposed land fit for heroes, they had ceased to care. Men who had been killed in action or died of wounds or sickness within those dates were automatically awarded the bar - not that it would have made any difference to them by that stage of course.

Paul

[shinglma]

Kev

I read the Rita/Puta bit as Retd, so maybe returned (Kings Regulations 1743), though the squiggly brackets seem to imply that this only applies to his BWM and Victory Medal, which is a bit strange.

all the best

The medals would have been sent out separately - the 1914 star first and later the BWM and Victory Medal.

Whilst the former might have been delivered the latter two were not - possibly because the recipient had moved homeuse in the interim.

Mike

[per ardua per mare per terram]

All medals were sent out registered post (now Special Delivery), so his 1914 Star was signed for and accepted. He might have moved or just declined to sign for the pair.

The qualification period for the SWB was 1914-1919, but it only came in in 1916. It would have been possible for him to have been wounded later, but it was NOT a wound badge. The SWB roll is worth getting, it gives enlistment and discharge dates.

[Guest KevinEndon]

He enlisted 28/06/09 discharged 27/1/19 wounds. Served overseas.

I will have to get his papers to see if he was an old contemptable.

[Paul Nixon]

I will have to get his papers to see if he was an old contemptable.

Technically he's not because he doesn't have the clasp. See my previous post.

[Bombadier]

Technically he's not because he doesn't have the clasp. See my previous post.

What proof do we have that he hasn't a clasp (unless I'm missing something obvious)?

My Grandfather arrived in France in August 1914 with the RGA. His battery was in action shortly afterwards.

There is no reference to a clasp on his MIC although it is still in the family, along with his Old Contemptible lapel badge.

The MIC is not infallible!

Nigel

[Paul Nixon]

What proof do we have that he hasn't a clasp (unless I'm missing something obvious)?

The absence of the appropriate reference on the MIC is a fairly obvious indicator. Maybe there's another card with the reference.

[Bombadier]

I think that we are going round in a circle here so I am going to drop out. We must agree to disagree as to the absolute accuracy of the information on a MIC. I believe that omissions can be made. There is no second MIC for my grandfather (that I have been able to find)

Thanks for the discussion.

Nigel

[Guest KevinEndon]

Many thanks to all who tried to solve the problem, maybe Chris can tell us if Inspector Morse or Petroche Petrocell Petrache to heck with it Ironside are pals on here and they can track it down.

Speaking to another pal today he has a genuine trio and the MIC to this bloke does not have the details of a clasp on it but the medal does.

I'm off to stick my head in the oven.

Kevin

[Terry_Reeves]

There were many men who served with the original BEF who did not qualify for the clasp. Please see my post on the subject here:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...mp;#entry399322

You will need to scroll up the thread for the explanation.

Terry Reeves

[Muerrisch]

The MiC is not the authority: that is the medal roll.

To take 2nd RWF as an example, there are many men on the 1914 roll without note of issue of the clasp. To suggest that they were not Old Contemptibles is nonsense: a large proportion survived, and a proportion of those needed to claim the clasp and did not, because they had returned to Civvy Street. Others were dead and needed next of kin to make the effort. They remain Old Contemptibles: they were on the roll of a battalion specifically listed for the award

1. , many of them arriving on 11 August 1914. A handful might be exceptions, but, as the battalion was kept astonishingly strong [indeed over-strength at one stage], a very large number of the 1914 star men would have/ could have been issued with the bar.

[Sue Light]

A check of the unit war diary for 19 Field Ambulance should show where they were during the qualifying period, and might solve the 'guns' bit.

WO95/1366

Sue

[birkettm]

He may have qualified for clasp and roses and not applied for it. My Grt Grandad was an old comtemptible and never applied. Therefore 14 star trio without clasp and no reference on MIC....

[Muerrisch]

A check of the unit war diary for 19 Field Ambulance should show where they were during the qualifying period, and might solve the 'guns' bit.

WO95/1366

Sue

As 19 Fd Amb. were part of 19 Bde, which certainly qualified, I cannot imagine that 19 Fd Amb failed to qualify. I have two doctors in whom I am interested served in 19 Fd Amb.