Time at Gallipoli

[swatt9r]

Was it Grenwich Mean Time that was used by army and Navy at Gallipoli? Who owned its accuracy?

Stewart

[swatt9r]

I thought I would amplify my original post which may have been too brief.

In mid-September 2005 I went on the Gallipoli Association 2 week walking tour of the Gallipoli battlefields. On a 'free' day a few of us clambered down Wire Gully to find 'Marine Trench' and the newly found Turkish mass graves. While waiting for our 'pickup' at Lone Pine I sat reading Rhodes James' book and the chapter 'The August Plan'. In it RJ says that Birdwood was ordered to make a diversionary attack at Lone Pine, on August 6th to draw Turkish reserves away from the Assaulting Columns attack further north. Walker was dead against this attack and argued for the time of attack to be put back from 3pm to 5pm then eventually 5.30pm. If the time of the attack was 5.30pm GMT then as Turkey is GMT plus 3 hours, it would have taken place in darkness. However, RJ shows (picture 31) 'a Lone Pine attack' (which he implies is the 6th August attack although he does not say so in the caption) in broad daylight. So the allies must have used some sort of GMT plus time zone for the Gallipoli theatre and the question is who would have devised and agreed this?

Stewart

[horatio2]

The Official History states (Vol 1, p.141):- "Eastern Mediterranean Time was used by the army and navy i.e. two hours in advance of GMT. The time was given daily to GHQ Signal Coy by the flagship, and communicated to all formations at 8am. Hours were reckoned 0 to 24, one minute ater midnight being written 00.01 and one minute before midnight 23.59."

Nowadays, because military ops are co-ordinated over a very wide area, GMT is used almost exclusively.

H2

[bluedog]

Time seems to have been in disaray at Gallipoli.

British and Australian time was seven minutes out

at the August attack at the Nek.

Peter

[Eceabat]

Hi Stewart,

even if the Allied forces on the Peninsula had been operating on GMT there would have been fair light at the time of the Lone Pine assault. Given that it is summer here the sun doesn't set until about 8:30 pm local time, meaning that it would be dusk. In fact, any attack at that time would have been silhouetted against the setting sun behind Imbros, giving the defending Turkish forces an excellent target.

As it was, the attacking First Brigade AIF would have had about a couple of hours of good daylight, though this was of less consequence for some as much of the fighting at the Pine was in tunnels or covered over trenches.

Cheers

Bill

[swatt9r]

Thank you H2, Peter and Bill. Having spent so much time and money getting the longitude problem sorted I should have known the Navy would have devised a theatre time. Bill, never got to see a late sunset on Anzac as always sipping Effes on terrace at Eceabat or Bigali by then. Peter, who do you think got the time wrong at the Nek?

Stewart

[bluedog]

Stewart

In my readings the British Navy got the time wrong

for the Charge at the Nek.

If you read in C.E.W. Bean's Official History Vol. 2

Chapter XX1

Pages 612-613

It is spelt out

Peter

[horatio2]

Peter, there is another interpretation given by Michael Hickey in his "Gallipoli", namely that there was "most probably an error of synchronisation between the gunners [i.e. the shore-based artillery] and the Light Horse." The gunners had the task of bombarding the nearest Turkish trenches and it was this fire that ceased 7 minutes early (by Light Horse time). The bombardment by fleet destroyers continued to pound the Turkish lines further back on Baby 700 after the land artillery ceased fire 'prematurely'. Bean's narrative, I believe, leans towards this interpretation. There remains the possibility that it was the Light Horse watches that were 'wrong' and, anyway, the Navy had no responsibility for synchronisation between units ashore. We shall never know the true reason.

H2

[bluedog]

H2

G'Day Mate

Further to my post on the Royal Naval bombardment at the Nek.

From the Defending Victoria website:

"In some ways the most tragic of these operations was the attack

on "The Nek" on 7 August 1915 by dismounted Light Horsemen of

the 3rd. Brigade.

They were ordered to charge uphill in four sussessive waves of 150

men.

A British naval bombardment unexpectedly stopped 7 minutes early,

enough time for the Turkish Forces to re-occupy their trenches.

Each line of Light Horsemen was slaughted as it emerged from the

Australian trenches."

And from the Defending Victoria Nek page:

The rush from the trenches was timed to begin on the dot of 4.30 am.

For an unknown reason the thunderous bombardment was suddenly

cut short "as if by a knife" seven minutes early.

H2 and Pals I am only quoting written text

Peter

[Ozzie]

The men that were there had varying recollections of why and when, so so far down the track it would be very hard to come up with a correct answer. I am pretty sure this has been discussed before, not sure where though, try a search of the Nek and the 8th LH Reg and 10th LH Reg.

Cheers

Kim

[horatio2]

Peter, Bean (and others) make it clear that the bombardment plan for was for naval destroyers and land artillery to paste the Turkish trenches until 4.30. [because of the inherent flat trajectory of naval gunfire, their targets were not the forward trenches - too close to the Light Horse. The land-based artillery would have taken trenches as close as possible.] The plan was for the land artillery to totally cease fire at 4.30 while the naval gunfire raised its sights onto targets, and continued to fire, further to the rear. At 4.23 Light Horse time this is what happened. Bean is clear that the land artillery ceased fire instantly and at the same time the naval bombardment shifted to the Turkish rear, as planned. The website statement that the "British naval bombardment stopped unexpectedly 7 minutes early" is not supported by Bean. Whatever may have caused the timing mis-match, it is pretty clear that the land artillery and the naval bombardment were very closely co-ordinated in time and the Light Horse timing was the odd one out [although that does not mean they were incorrect - perhaps both the naval and land-based guns were on the 'wrong time' and the LH were the only people on the 'right' time.] Whichever way, the result was a tragedy of terrible proportions.

H2

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

In all this, one barrage still was maintained - the two machine gun barrage at Turk's Point under the command of Cliff Ashburner. This enfliaded the Turkish trenches. Ashburner was ordered to stop at 4.30am in case he shot the charging men - which in this case he would not have done so due to the position of the machine guns. During the barrage, Ashburner's team expended some 10,000 rounds - a not insignificant amount of work to perform this task.