paullaw1155 Posted 17 June , 2006 Share Posted 17 June , 2006 Pals Just bought Peter Harts book The Somme (Out in paperback June 10th). First read the hardback version last year from the library. The best and MOST INFORMATIVE book that I have read on the subject of The Somme. Anyone looking for a book to read then I can reccomend this one. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetop Posted 1 July , 2006 Share Posted 1 July , 2006 Thanks Paul,I have just been to a talk given by Peter at the DLI museum this afternoon. Excellent speaker with good knowledge of his subject but had 2nd thoughts about the book due to the crowd around at the end and a desire to see the Engand game live (foolish boy !!) and a little distance to travel. Will makea point now of getting a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 1 July , 2006 Share Posted 1 July , 2006 Peter Hart is a forum member if you didn't know! It is a great book in my opinion too. Just for your information there is a lengthy thread on this book here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p;hl=proof+copy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMHart Posted 2 July , 2006 Share Posted 2 July , 2006 Hi, And I am pleased to confirm to Desmond7 that thanks to the jusifiable outcry in that previous thread I made especially sure that the 36th (Ulster) Division can once again stand proud under their correct title in the paperback! So the forum does make a difference!!! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockney tone Posted 2 July , 2006 Share Posted 2 July , 2006 Paul, recently went to a lecture by Peter Hart (on Gallipoli) and whilst there treated myself to the CD 'Book' on The Somme, halfway through it and very enjoyable. especially with some veterans actually speaking their accounts. Makes a nice change to have them on in the car i/l of music. Cheers, Scottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 2 July , 2006 Share Posted 2 July , 2006 MutterMutterMutter6thMutterNorthantsMutterScurrilousMutter. Only kidding. Cracking book. Throughly recommended. (And the smashing bloke bought me a beer too!) Steve. P.S. What did you think of Lt-Col. Maxwell's star turn on The Somme: From Defeat to Victory, Peter? (And the 6th Northants didn't get a mention on there, either. Everyone else in the 54th Brigade did of course!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMHart Posted 3 July , 2006 Share Posted 3 July , 2006 Hi Steve, I thought the Maxwell figure lacked a little of the 'fire' that comes across in Maxwell's letters. Also Maxwell's methods are not aways a good example of 'best practice' - he was too keen to get forward up to his neck in mud and blood! I don't think that the lifespan of Colonels is best served by having them too far forwards and in the film it is noticeable that two of the other Colonels from the Brigade were casualties. Of course if they go beyond their communications they are also effectively not performing their role liaising with Brigade HQ and essentially become platoon or company commanders - an accusation directed on occasion at Maxwell. However the film director did make it clear that Maxwell did stay in touch and liaised effectively so that was fair enough. All told it was nice to see him given a bit of 'recognition' as a real character some 90 years on. The 6th Northamptons were in close support that day and moved up pretty soon under shell fire at 13.00. Maxwell ended up taking command of two of their companies after Colonel Ripley had been fatally wounded. The three battalions were then pretty well mixed during the consolidation of their gains at Thiepval and intruth were as much involved as the Royal Fusiliers and the Middlesex. I did enjoy the programme, although I am a bit biased as I was one of the historical advisors - with Mike Stedman, Taff Gillingham and Prof Garry Sheffield. Partly I just like to see anyone putting forward more balanced and less hysterical approach to the Somme. I thought the director looked hard at the evidence put before him from various sources and then made his own mind up from a standing start - so I think he did well. He was a nice about it too - as was Rachel Hogg his researcher. Cheers, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 3 July , 2006 Share Posted 3 July , 2006 We didn't get the "kick the whimpering runner down the line" scene, either! Did enjoy the programme. Though not as good as the Book. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n cherry Posted 6 July , 2006 Share Posted 6 July , 2006 Fortunately my daughter recorded the BBC Somme programme for me as I was still out there and thought it was a pretty good programme. A small comment would have to be about the 1st July casualty figures and the Generals perforamnce......the narrator stated that as we all know that the BA had over 57,000 casualties but the French ‘only had 2,500’. To balance this comment it would have been nice to state how many troops the French sent over the top. It shows how statistics can be used to prove or disprove anything..... Look forward also Peter to having another of our chats soon…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 6 July , 2006 Share Posted 6 July , 2006 The book is so good I've even bought the CD version so I can listen to it when I'm driving. Great use of original sources and it made me seek out Charles Day's grave at Dantzig Alley last weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 6 July , 2006 Share Posted 6 July , 2006 Peter - your efforts be praised. I noted the change and meant to say thanks but got caught up in other things. Job well done. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 6 July , 2006 Share Posted 6 July , 2006 Also noted that the Holts (as promised) removed the 'alcohol' bit from their latest guide. Credit where credit is due. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 6 July , 2006 Share Posted 6 July , 2006 To balance this comment it would have been nice to state how many troops the French sent over the top. It shows how statistics can be used to prove or disprove anything..... The French attacked with a very significant force, especially considering their ongoing commitments at Verdun. There was General Balfourier's XX Corps next to the British (11th, 39th, 72nd, and 153rd Divisions, with 32 batteries of heavy artillery); then General Berdoulat's I Colonial Corps (2nd Colonial, 3rd Colonial, 16th Colonial and 99th Territorial Divisions, with 65 batteries of heavy artillery); and General Jacquot's XXXV Corps (51st, 61st, and 121st Divisions, with 20 batteries of heavy artillery). XX Corps advance to the line was hidden by mist. The attack took all objectives, in keeping with their British neighbours, and then repulsed four German counter-attacks. South of the Somme, the French had a huge superiority of heavy artillery - 85 vs 8 batteries. They waited for 2 hours after the British and French attacks started north on the river. This took the Germans completely by surprise, enabling the capture all objectives in the front line, and sometimes reaching the second line. Four thousand prisoners were taken. Fraser-Tytler, a British artillery officer, gave the following description of a French attack on the Somme early in 1916 (February): 'the French attacked at 1 pm, with the intention of recapturing the Bois de Vaches. For three days and nights they had never ceased shelling the wood, and the fire reached the intense stage at 12.30 noon. With my (deer-hunting) telescope I could see the French forming up for the attack, and the Germans crouching in their trenches trying to get cover from the barrage. Once the attack started it was difficult to say what was happening. From the onlooker's point of view little groups of men appeared to be wandering in every direction. We heard afterwards that they captured about half the wood, making an advance of a few hundred yards and taking 400 prisoners'. When you couple these small group tactics with a massive unexpected bombardment and, don't forget, the huge British and French effort to distract north of the river, little wonder there was more success with fewer casualties. Nice job, General Foch (Army Group Commander) and General Fayolle (Sixth Army). Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 6 July , 2006 Share Posted 6 July , 2006 And a ' nice job' on the explanations/further info Mr. Dunlop. As always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAAEd Posted 15 July , 2006 Share Posted 15 July , 2006 Just bought Peter Harts book The Somme (Out in paperback June 10th). I have just started reading this book and as usual scanned the pictures first. One question arises from this WRT the picture (Q 4018) captioned as being of Men of the 4th South African Regiment cleaning Lewis Guns. A number are kilted, is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahoehler Posted 22 August , 2006 Share Posted 22 August , 2006 . . . Men of the 4th South African Regiment cleaning Lewis Guns. A number are kilted, is this correct? Absolutely. In fact some of the South Africans could not speak english and so were taken as true Scots! From Digby in "Pyramids and Poppies" The 4th SA Infantry (SA Scottish) of the 1st SA Brigade (2nd & 3rd SA Brigades were in G E A) was raised by Colonel William Dalrymple and initially fought as part of the 9th (Scottish) Division. The 4th SAI consisted of A Company - Cape Town Highlanders and the Cape generally B Company - 1st Battalion Transvaal Scottish C Company - 2nd Battalion Transvaal Scottish D Company - Volunteers from Natal and the Orange Free State The Regimental March was the "The Atholl Highlanders" and the tarton was Murray of Atholl. I am not sure about the khaki aprons though! The 1st SA Brigade also took a beating at the Butte de Warlencourt (Oct/Nov 1916) and Fampoux (April 1917) and was almost wiped out at Marrieres Wood (March 1918) where " . . . they filled the breach between General Gough's Fifth Army and General Byng's Third Army. It was at this point that German General Von der Marwitz intended to drive a wedge between the two armies. . . ". On the 11th September 1918 the remnants of the 1st SA Brigade which had been reduced to the SA Composite Battalion was withdrawn from the 9th (Scottish) Division, reformed and attached to the 66th Division which itself having been "reduced to a shadow of its former self during the German March offensive, had been re-formd late in the summer of 1918 under the command of Maj-Gen H K Bethell." At the Armistice the 1st SA Brigade was part of the army advance guard on the line Hestrud - Sivry some 20 miles east of Le Cateau Carl Hoehler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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