Mark Hone Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 While doing some last-minute research for my upcoming battlefields' tour, I came across the section of Mike Harding's website devoted to his song 'Accrington Pals'. I don't know if its been mentioned on the forum before but the accompanying 'factual' information on the Pals is quite possibly the most inaccurate I have ever seen on the internet (and that's saying something!) Whatever you think of the song it's a pity Mr. Harding didn't have a look at Bill Turner's books or Andrew Jackson's excellent site devoted to the 'Pals' before he wrote the absolute nonsense which accompanies it on his site. If you have sufficiently strong nerves you can read it at: http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/books/other/b...s/acc_pals.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 One of the more worrying aspects of this, is the fact that for someone who is placing himself as a spokesman for the Pals he has done them and himself a disservice....its a shame he hasn't referenced his sources! Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Mick And if anyone thinks its because I'm prejudiced against folk music, I hate jazz as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 Well, you can't fault the strength of his opinion. Perhaps he'll consider letting us write his next folk song...... (And Mick - you're OK with me: I hate Jazz too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 Better still if we promise not to sing or write songs he gets a researcher in. mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 I only read the first few lines, and that was enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 He is a singer, not an historian. Songs have always been full of mistakes, but it is the emotion rather than accuracy that is important? Eric Bogle has the AIF wearing "tin hats" on their way to Gallipoli, and the wording sounds as if the subject of the song was not exactly a volunteer either. And so on. However, Mike Harding has had time to get it right. An earlier, shorter, version of this 'history lesson' appears on the album cover for the LP the Accrington Pals is from. This album, "Bombers Moon", dates back to the 1980s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 emotion is more important than accuracy? where is truth? Surely truth and accuracy are essential in any medium which leads the listener or reader or viewer into believing they are involved in the telling of a true story. Its the not the accuracy of the song rather than the accuracy of his explanation of the song. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 emotion is more important than accuracy? where is truth? Surely truth and accuracy are essential in any medium which leads the listener or reader or viewer into believing they are involved in the telling of a true story. Its the not the accuracy of the song rather than the accuracy of his explanation of the song. Mick Mick The song is a song, not an historical treatise. Who on earth believes that a song is a true story? I don't believe that of history let alone a ballad. Surely we are debating the accuracy of everything? History being "lies told by thieves" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 No you misunderstand. Have you read the website? It sells itself as a true story. If it sold itself as song about a mythical batallion, for example: the 1st Clog Sparkers (Chip on Shoulder Pals). Who fought and suffered losses at the terrible place the Claypits at the hands of the terrible axis of evil, the gaffers, bosses and owners, which was made worse by the neglect of a saggarmakers bottom knocker, then I'm ok with that. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 I have a feeling this thread might be withdrawn. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 Its not the song but the text after the song. Sorry Mick I posted this post without reading your last two post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 Sorry Mick I posted this post without reading your last two post thats ok, I opened it up slowly in case it exploded in my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Tomlinson Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 Rather than whinge on about it here, why dont you email Mike and point out the error of his ways. You'll get him via the BBC website. So far as Eric Bogle is concerned, he's Scottish and not Australian - and when did we ever see blue birds over the white cliffs of Dover and how many actually knew where Tiparary let alone how far away it was! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whkay Posted 9 June , 2006 Share Posted 9 June , 2006 I love the song and so what if he adopted a little "poetic license" in what followed, I would guess it was for the consumption of those that will never understand (and maybe never want to) unlike maybe the 0.01% of you that do.. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 10 June , 2006 Share Posted 10 June , 2006 whingeing? I thought I was sarcastically criticising. How did Eric Bogle get into this? Who is Eric Bogle? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 10 June , 2006 Share Posted 10 June , 2006 whingeing? I thought I was sarcastically criticising. How did Eric Bogle get into this? Who is Eric Bogle? Mick This is Eric Bogle: http://ericbogle.net/lyrics/index.htm The lyrics of "And the band played Wltzing Matilda" speak of wearing a tin hat in 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 10 June , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2006 As the original poster of this topic I thought that I had made it clear that what concerned me was not the song itself but the so-called factual information which accompanies it on the website, which is almost completely inaccurate from start to finish. I fully accept that the lyrics of the song itself include poetic licence, as that is what a song is, a musical poem. However when the 'historical notes' accompanying the lyrics on the website inform me that the pals were formed in 1916, were recruited from Accrington and 'surrounding small villages' (like Burnley, Blackburn and Chorley), received virtually no training and when an incident invented for the play 'The Accrington Pals' is solemnly related as fact, I chafe a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Tomlinson Posted 10 June , 2006 Share Posted 10 June , 2006 If its inaccurate then tell him. If you can substantiate what you think is the correct version, I'm sure he would be more than interested to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 10 June , 2006 Share Posted 10 June , 2006 Ray this is a great war forum and forums are for disgussing. Are are many inaccurates out there and if they can't be talked about here then where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 11 June , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2006 Ray, I shall tell him. What saddens me is that Mike Harding, or whoever wrote the 'historical notes' could have eliminated most of the worst errors by doing approximately two minutes' research on the internet or looking at one of Bill Turner's excellent books on the Pals which have been around for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 11 June , 2006 Share Posted 11 June , 2006 Mike Harding’s own website provides a link to Andrew Jackson’s website. While acknowledging that the information given is inaccurate, I would say that this summary is exactly what I’ve heard many times from older people whose fathers lived in the region and might have been Pals had they chosen that route to war. In a way, the writer is giving credence to oral history – which indicates some of its dangers. As a teenager I heard Mike Harding in club venues. I bet there are quite a lot of people who wouldn’t have heard of the Accrington Pals if it hadn’t been for Mike, his tales and his song. When I took O level History, we did only the causes and conclusion of the First World War, and what happened in between was a couple of Wilfred Owen poems. Mike’s song added a human perspective and made what was mind-numbingly boring into something that might actually be interesting to explore. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Own Posted 14 June , 2006 Share Posted 14 June , 2006 We have an inaccuracy in Eric Bogle's 'No Man's Land (The Green Fields Of France)' where he refers to 'countless white crosses' in a British cemetery. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 14 June , 2006 Share Posted 14 June , 2006 We have an inaccuracy in Eric Bogle's 'No Man's Land (The Green Fields Of France)' where he refers to 'countless white crosses' in a British cemetery. Steve That was my point. Everything you will ever read is full of mistakes. Probably songs more than history, but even so.... Tolstoy said: "History would be an excellent thing if only it were true." One of my favourite song 'mistakes' is in Roger Whittaker's 'Durham Town': When I was a lad, I spent my time, Sitting on the banks of the River Tyne. Watching all the ships going down the line, they were leaving, Leaving, leaving, leaving, leaving me. Sitting on the banks of the river Tyne is a good trick if you can manage it. Considering that Durham is nearly encircled by the River Wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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