Haig was good in 1914!

[armourersergeant]

I have always been under the impression that what ever else you could say about Haig he was dependable and able during the retreats of 1914 and around 1st Ypres.

So how surprised was i, and maybe some of you, to read in Ian Becketts bio of Johnnie Gough of two instances that show a different light on him.

It states that Haig at the time of the attacks at Landrecies was suffering from diarrhoea and appears to have panicked, he was seen standing on his doorstep revolver in hand saying "We must sell our lives dearly".

Also it is apparant that on 31st October Haig lost his head once more and had plans drawn up for a retreat only for a member of his staff (probably Gough who constanlty remained calm) to get them all colected up and burnt before they could be issued.

The first one regarding him waiving his gun i am ashamed to say made me laugh to think of him standing there saying those words.

There is one word of warning though, and it is a big one, the source of these quotes is Edmonds to Liddel Hart. That said no smoke without fire.

Has anyone else come across this type of quote etc.

Arm.

[Muerrisch]

Arm: If I had diarrhoea [and if I could spell it] I wouldn't be standing on the doorstep, revolver in hand, shouting ANYTHING. Case dismissed. Next.

Any leader who was not drawing up [contingency] plans should have been sacked. Having decided that Plan A was a better one, it was prudent to destroy Plan B, or save it for the next attack of diarrhoea.

We shall never know about Haig, the trail is muddy and the protagonists spend too much time abusing each other. What we can say without fear of contradiction [oh yes?] is that he and his magnificent conscript army, led and held together by the survivors of our incomparable professionals, won the day in 1918 in a staggering 100 day campaign that is hardly ever taught or acknowledged, certainly not by the media. I give due credit to our allies, but the British army won the only battle that counted: the last one.

[Terry]

From the reading I have done recently, it seems that there were "good guys" (Smith-Dorrien, Allenby, Robertson,etc.), "bad guys" (French,Wilson,etc.), and others floating around the middle ground somewhere (Haig). I know I am oversimplifying things, but the positives about the events of Aug-Sept 1914 seem to revolve around S-D's courageous stand at Mons and Le Cateau with II Corps, Robertson's incredible efforts at providing supplies for the troops in a terrible situation, and Allenby's handling of his cavalry.

French and Wilson don't seem to be painted very favourably overall. Haig doesn't make a big impact, mainly because I Corps didn't take a major part in the first two battles of the war, until September.

Remember, these are the authors' impressions I gathered, not necessarily my own feelings.

[armourersergeant]

LB1418,

The inference in the writing is that it was not Haig that decided to destroy the orders but Gough who was becoming increasingly worried by his commanders persistance in retreating at the slightest oppotunity.

By the way if the Germans were banging on my door I too would not be waving a pistol, though i would probably have a case of bad diarrhoea.

Arm.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Arm ... you cant tease me on this one!

Beckett is known to quite clearly fall in the category of anti-Haig. I havent read his bio of Gough but if this verges on hero-worship, then you might find yr answer as to why Beckett is so scathing of Haig in these early days of the war.

[armourersergeant]

Sigs,

Sod it!!!!

Arm.

[Jock Bruce]

The idea of an incontinent, panic-stricken Haig seems a bit at odds with the general impression of an extremely (overly?) self-controlled individual. But we all have our off days.

However, must say a subordinate burning draft orders before they could be issued doesn't sound like any HQ I ever saw. What was Haig's supposed reaction when he recovered himself - effusive thanks to the individual concerned for saving the day while he was 'out of it'? A shifty refusal to meet his eye?

I know just enough about Haig to know how much I don't know, but this sounds 'odd'.

Jock

[Chris_Baker]

It would be interesting to know the original sources of this view of Haig at Landrecies. I suspect none exist.

According to John Charteris "Haig had taken up his own quarters for the night at Landrecies, and it was reported to him that the village was surrounded and the rearguard cut off from the main body.

From early morning the intermittent sound of guns had shown him that the enemy were in close touch with the II Corps. It now seemed probable that teh pursuing Germans had achieved their object, and that the whole British force had been overtaken and were to be brought to battle. [CB: Haig's I Corps was isolated, having passed to the east of the Forest of Mormal, and was now several miles from the nearest units of II Corps].

So serious did the position appear to Haig that he gave orders to his Staff to prepare to destroy all records which might be of value to the enemy.

An Engineer and a Staff Officer were sent with troops to prepare the local barracks as a last defence, where Haig told his Staff he would make a final stand and sell his life as dearly as possible if retreat were cut off. "If we can't get away", said Haig, "we will fight to the last man"."

I believe that Charteris was Haig's ADC at the time. His papers are in the Liddell Hart Centre at King's College. I don't know if papers of anyone else who may have been present at these events in Landrecies exist anywhere.

[Geoff Parker]

Of all the books I have read on the retreat in 1914 and the incident

at Landrecies, two have mentioned Haig's apparent panic. One account

describes it as "panic" and his orders to burn all the records and get away

before they were captured. The other book mentions the excuse put forward

by Charteris as Haig having suffered from an unset stomach.

I can't remember which books they were in, I'll have to have a look. But

I'm not certain I would believe any account put forward by Charteris and

where the author of the first book obtained their information I cant say.

I suppose it will always remain an unsolved incident.

Geoff

[Chris_Baker]

You may be right, Geoff. I only offer Charteris as possibly the only person who was actually present at I Corps HQ at Landrecies, who has left a legacy of papers, other than Haig himself.

[armourersergeant]

Chris,

Hugh Jeudwine was a GSO1 and Neil Malcolm ( later Hubert Goughs MGGS 5th Army)GSO2 operations under Johnnie Gough at I corps headquarters. I know that there are some papers of Jeudwine at Liddel Hart and IWM but i am not sure if these comment on 1914. As for Malcolm i am not sure. It is also fair to say that 'Judy' was doing alot of running around from Hq to HQ etc getting info. That said he could have picked up info from other staff officers.

My own opinion on this is probably that its all a bit true from both angles and probably comes down to interpretation of how the 'story' was told, as there seems to be some truth in certain facts.

Anyway i am only upto Somaliland 1903, i just couldnt resist sneaking ahead to see what Forestier-Walker and J Gough were upto in aug 1914. I'll let you know if i find any other quotes etc.

Arm.