'Gallipoli' by L. A. Carlyon

[michaeldr]

"Gallipoli" by L. A. Carlyon. Paperback published by Bantam Books. Price UKP 9.99

First published in Australia by Pan Macmillan Australia Pty Limited 2001.

747 pages including Endnotes/Index etc;14 maps and 32 pages of illustrations.

This is a big book in more ways than one, but despite being difficult to handle, it reads very easily. This is probably due to Mr Carlyon's background being in newspapers rather than academia. Having said that however, no one should be misled into thinking that the work is anything less than professional. The 'Selected Bibliography' runs to 12 pages. It was thoroughly researched in Australia, New Zealand, Britain and by visits to Gallipoli. Nearly a third of the book is given over to the details of the August 1915 fighting and after much hard leg-work under expert guidance in the field, the author is able to successfully untangle the web of precipices and gullies and to convey clearly to the reader all of the difficulties which were faced at that time by the various forces.

The writer won the 'Graham Perkin Australian Journalist of the Year' award in 1993 and he maintains his high reputation in this work by being scrupulously fair, not just to the Anzacs but also to the Turk and to the British where the facts indicate that they deserve it; eg. see his commments on Hughes and Antill at the Nek, or on Allanson's unsupported remarks about Monash, or on Murdoch's letter. The journalistic style also allows Mr Carlyon to pass comments which, although they may have previously occurred to the reader, one does not often find them voiced in the histories; eg. on Mahon, "Three British soldiers were executed for offences during the Gallipoli campaign; the French executed many more there. A private could not leave his post or fall asleep on guard duty, but a general could sulk off in the middle of a battle. Hamilton conceded that a general 'chucking up ' his command while his division was under fire was a 'very unhappy affair'. He wasn't going to sack him for it, though........If Mahon's tantrum was disgraceful by the standards of any era, he didn't suffer for it. He was in the club."

The reviewer in 'The Gallipolian' thought that Mr Carlyon's book deserves to be up there with such oft quoted accounts as those by Rhodes James and Hickey. I agree, and I feel that in time it may well become a classic of the campaign.

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Geoff S]

Michael,

I completely agree with you about this book. I noted as such on a Aussie forum back in May 15 of this year. Here is part of my comments I noted back in May;

"I personally thought the analysis by Peter Carlyon in the recently published book “Gallipoli” was quite commendable. I will not quote directly from it because I am sure everyone probably has this book. It is an easy read, structured and clear.

But it makes some sensitive and subjective assessments normally omitted by other more famous military scholars describing the campaign"

I rate this book very highly because it is a positive step forward from other books (including Non-Australian) I have read on this campaign. Much of what has been published in the past, being unnoteworthy, or simply a re-hash of a previous authors analysis.

The amount of books written about this campaign in Australia and the UK over the last 10-20 years has been enormous. For me this is the only true standout!

Cheers

Geoff S

[michaeldr]

Pleased to read your comments Geoff, and to note that you think that in Australia "everyone probably has this book." I hope that you're right.

And I hope that it will also be as popular in the northern hemisphere; it certainly deserves as wide a readership as possible.

Regards

Michael D.R.

[paul guthrie]

Well I have to say Canadian historian Tim Travers' Gallipoli 1915 is certainly in the outstanding category and has the advantage of completley new research in Ottoman archives. For instance he disproves the widely held belief another go by the Navy would have forced the straits; they had plenty of shells. Another myth blown up is British came a hair of beating Turks to Lala Baba, they did not.

[Staffsyeoman]

Have to say if I recall correctly Carlyon did not get a great reception in the broadsheet review pages last Christmas here in the UK. Having bought it sight unseen - and still not having read it - can't comment...

Have read Travers though, and that deserves a place on any WW1 historian's shelf, methinks.

As to the unwieldiness of Carlyon - fear not, it came out in far more pocket friendly paperback here in the UK last week.

Regards

Phil

[MartinWills]

Another myth blown up is British came a hair of beating Turks to Lala Baba, they did not.

Paul,

Are you sure you (or Tim Travers) mean Lala Baba?

Lala Baba was taken by the British pretty much immediately in the wake of the initial landings around 2130 on 6th August 1915 and was well behind the front line by the morning of the 7th.

The Turks had a presence there at the time the landings started and were fairly quickly displaced and mopped up.

Martin

[Andrew P]

Another good aspect on Carlyon's book is his current description of the Gallipoli battlefield.

He has a good ability to blend the historic occurences that took place in 1915 with the present day battlefield that many of us have visited.

[michaeldr]

Paul,

I don't think that there is any disagreement on the value of Prof Travers' book; I own a copy which I have read and often refer back to. The research done by Travers and his colleagues at Galgary is a very valuable addition to our knowledge of the campaign, however his objective in writing his book was somewhat limited. In his introduction "The Riddle of Gallipoli" Travers himself says that his "...book looks at several factors and, while intending to answer the basic questions of success and failure, does not aim to describe every detail of the Gallipoli campaign."

On the other hand, Carlyon has opted for a more traditional approach and he has provided us with what I would call a 'narrative' history of the campaign. In that sense I feel that his book can stand along side those of Rhodes James et al and be counted amongst the classics.

[incidentally, having been impressed by Travers' "Gallipoli 1915" I have just recently bought a copy of his book "The Killing Ground" and hope to commence reading it soon]

Phil,

My copy of Carlyon's book is the Bantam paperback version which I purchased last week (probably the one you refer to) and I'm sorry but I still found it a handful.

Regards

Michael D.R.

[paul guthrie]

Martin, no I am not sure, as usual posting off the top of my head without my books which are at home, should have said I was not sure. It's a hill in the Suvla section. Maybe someone with the book near can check. He says - from memory again - there has been controversey about dawdling by British and they could have beaten turks to the hill, missed by very short time. Travers research shows Turks had been there a while actually, maybe a day.

[Paul Reed]

Les Carylon is currently working on a follow up book about the AIF on the Western Front. He is a nice bloke, and agood historian. Jacky Plateeuw and myself recently had the pleasure of taking him around the Australian sectors in France and Flanders, and from what he said the new book looks even more promising than the Gallipoli one.

[michaeldr]

Paul ®

Thanks for letting us in on that advance info

Two questions: I understand that this is the research stage so When will it be published?

Second Q., (tongue in cheek) How big? If Gallipoli = c.750, then how many pages for the WF?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Paul Reed]

As I understand it publication is sometime mid-2004 in Australia; but don't quote me on that. As for size, I have no idea.

[paul guthrie]

I can't find the Travers book and can't supply the name of the hill he discussed. I am so out of book shelf room they are stacked in the living room and a peril to the cats! I did stumble on Old Soldiers Never Die which I have not read in several years so the search did do some good.

[Geoff S]

I think you you will find Lala Baba hill was captured fairly quickly.

refer page 237- Vol 2 Official History of the War- Military Operations- Gallipoli

Just to clarify-when I noted in my previous comment that everyone probably already had a copy of the book, I was referring to just a few of the Aussie forum members that were in the discussion.

Les Carylon's book on Gallipoli was widely available in Australia when it was released. I think it must have sold quite well. How well I do not know,, If it got a bad review,,well I would wonder if the reviewer had read other books written on the topic. I suggest probably not.I hope the book was read by more than just the Gallipoli enthusiasts.

Just by way of interest would anyone care to nominate their top 3 or 5 books they have read about the Gallipoli campaign. I have read a number of books on this campaign, I would be interested to know what books you felt were the most interesting & accurate.

I look forward to your responses

Cheers

Geoff S

[Andrew P]

Hi Geoff

One book I found to be very good was 'Gallipoli Mission' by C.E.W. Bean.

Regards

Andrew

[paul guthrie]

Geoff I have no doubt you and Martin are right about Lala baba. I just wish I knew name and location of the Hill Travers discusses which I mistakenly called Lala Baba. I may have to renew my campaign against the massive book pile and find it.

I have now emailed the author, maybe I will get lucky.

By the way, Killing Ground by Travers is now reprinted in paperback, outstanding. It makes by far the best case ever against Haig because it's not a polemic, does not have that as a purpose and is superbly researched and footnoted. P&S has it.

[paul guthrie]

Author to my rescue! Now danger of self and cats being crushed by cascade of falling WW1 books is over!

"The hill in question at Suvla is the Tekke Tepe Heights. The old idea was that the Turks beat the British to the heights by a very short time margin but I am usre the Turks had been in the vicinity for some time through a forced march - at least a day, though probably pretty tired."

Clearly not having learned my lesson, from memory - no map here - that's the range that overlooks Suvla Bay to the southwest?

His is the best Gallipoli book I have read though it does not deal with the entire battle, stops after last big offensives.

He has two relatives there.

[Cliff. Hobson]

On a very recent visit to the Somme, stopped for lunch at Avril Williams place and there met a man, Simon Shields, having something in common re. the Lincolnshire Regt., (his Grandfather was K.I.A. at Galipolli.) he very kindly posted to me an extract from his research the following.

9th August 1915, ar 2,0 a.m.on the 9th the Battalion left bivouacs near Lala Baba and move along the southern shore of Salt Lake to Chocolate Hill where a short halt was called. Hardly had the troops begun to advance on Ismail Ogla Tepe (Hill W. when heavy rifle fire broke out from the N. E. at the same time the Turkish guns began to shell Chocolate Hill. Scimitar Hill was now held by the Turks, they had reinforcements and swept down from the heights and gained all vantage points. At 4.10 A.M. as the rifle fire opened on them the attacking troops deployed , the Lincolns into two lines of half battalions on a front of 500 yards. 'A' company on the right supported by 'D' & 'B' on the left supported by 'C'. The Guides who led forward now informed the C.O. that his Companies were about 100 yards too much to the right . This direction was corrected and the attack proceeded towards the Anfarta Ridge. It wsa already doubted if the final advance could be reached . Hill 70 was obviously held by the enemy in force.

Our losses were 12 Officers killed , wounded and missing, 392 rank and file . Out of 561 rank and file who originally started out, leaving the Battalion 5 Officers and 174 O. Rs. strong. (This was known as a Black Day in our Village( Whitwell, Derbys. 6 men were lost in this action plus 2 on the Western Front.)

No sooner had the Lincolns reached their new line when Captain Hansen called for volunteers to assist him, dashing back through the clouds of smoke and a stream of bullets into the burning scrub, which now gave off a terrific heat, he did this to save wounded men being burnt alive. Six times he went 300 yards into the inferno and rescued 6 men. He was later awarded the V.C.

The line formed by the Lincolns just rear of the burning scrub ran roughly from Hill 50 to Sulajik, hence th 33rd Brigade dug in during the night, joining up on the left with the troops of the 32nd Brigade.

[paul guthrie]

Do you know if Teppe Teke heights and Anafarta Range are the same or if former part of latter? Thanks for the post. You know, and it has to do with zero, but this area is really pretty.

[michaeldr]

Paul G,

Tekke Tepe at 882 feet, is one of two high points (the other is Kavak Tepe) on the range of hills directly north of Kucuk (Little) Anafarta village. You will find Tekke Tepe if you take a line directly east in-land from 'A' Beach

[According to the map on pages 78/79 of Haythornthwaite's 'Gallipoli 1915 Frontal Assault on Turkey' the Anfarta (sic) Ridge is the next line of hills to the east of Tekke Tepe]

Regards

Michael D.R.

[paul guthrie]

Thanks Michael. I had found Teppe Teke once I knew it was the hill I was looking for. I gather from lack of responses previously that none of you were aware of belief Travers debunked, that is British were within a very short time of beating Turks there.

Antafarta village is interesting too, isn't it the one nearest to where Sandringhams were found? I can tell you getting a bus through there was a trick. The thing got stuck two straight days in the Suvla area and once a farmer got us out with his small tractor. The other time Turkish troops brought watermelon, onions etc.What nice folks we ran into on the peninsula. It's hard to believe you are in Europe though I must say Bulgaria & Romania are poorer.

[michaeldr]

Paul,

I think you're correct about the remains of the Norfolks being found near this village, just to the north of it I believe

I certainly agree about the helpfulness and the hospitality of the locals

Just to return for a moment to the question of the names of these ranges of hills

since my last post I have had another look at Dick Raynor's article and its map

where, like you, he refers "foothills of Anafarta Ridge" rather than Tekke Tepe

So, you pays your money an' you makes yer choice

it seems that things have not changed much in 90 years and there is still room for someone to produce an exact map of the campaign's battlefields and to decide on the precise nomenclature to be used for the landscape

Regards

Michael D.R.

[paul guthrie]

I think some pal has the pertinent volume of the official history and I hope he/she can take a look and see how close it says British were to beating the Turks to Teppe Teke and how important not doing so was to the failure of the Suvla operation.

In general I do not subscribe to the butchers and bunglers school but I do regarding Gallipoli, what a mess!

[paul guthrie]

Looks like this one has gone quiet. My original statement that Turks beat British to Lala Baba is amazingly dumb! I have been there and to well past there to Amazak etc. and well aware they got way past this point. No accounting for these brain belches at times!

[Mark A]

Gallipoli- L A Carlyon

I cheerfully admit my interest in the first world war has been a schoolboy one consisting of, the western front and er, the western front. More specifically we’re talking the Somme. Put me in front of Theipval, Fricourt or High Wood and I could give you a pretty good run down of what happened there- anywhere else and it a case of “wait a second, where’s my guidebook?”. I’m gradually fanning out into other areas however.

So it was with a very sketchy background knowledge that I approached “Gallipoli” by L A Carlyon. Okay, I’d seen Peter Weir’s film and thought I knew about the ANZAC landings but that’s it. So I figured this book would be a good introduction and overview of the battle and a way of expanding my knowledge. I’m glad to see it was, and then some.

To be honest with you, I was bowled over by this book. Carlyon’s writing is as fresh as new paint, his descriptions of the action have a startling immediacy. He mixes up his tenses, in one memorable passage written in “as if you were there” prose, you follow Sir Ian Hamilton (“always chivalrous and seldom ruthless”) from his office in Horse Guards Parade to his fateful meeting with Kitchener (“….square headed, russet-cheeked, cross-eyed…”) and appointed the commander in chief. He also drifts in out of the history to talk about the battlefield as it exists today. Carlyon is a journalist by background and his writing has innovation, clarity and a lightness of touch that some historians lack.

Carlyon does a fantastic job of describing the unfolding events at Gallipoli, surely the greatest example of “mission creep” in military history. Gallipoli was an action that started off as naval in nature with troops to garrison Constantinople, that became an improvised landing, that became a siege- a sort of step by step guide of how not to run a military campaign. Carlyon has a great Aussie

sense of humour as well, his description of the doddering General Stopford (who “masterminded” the botched landings and inactivity at Suvla while the Anzacs were fighting and dying in the heights above them) would be laugh out loud funny if they weren’t so damned tragic. Kitchener is described as “generally failing to live up the promise he’d never shown”. Ouch.

In all, I’d recommend this book to anyone who wants to learn about the events at Gallipoli. It’s very fair minded, yes the British generals come in for some damning criticism but it’s well deserved and tempered by the author’s wider perspective of the time the battle was fought in, before it was truly acknowledged that the machine gun would always beat the bayonet.

Above everything else though, this is a book which leaves you marveling at human beings in all their myriad forms- their capacity for cruelty, heroism, cowardice and compassion. It’s a story about all the troops of whatever nationality, an epic of endurance through shells, dysentery and death and how despite everything, the human spirit managed to survive. As an ANZAC soldier said in a message left for the Turks after the evacuation: “You didn’t push us off Jacko, we just left”.

Has anyone else read it?

Mark