Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 28 April , 2006 Share Posted 28 April , 2006 Mates During nearly the whole of the Sinai and Gaza campaign from 1916-7, the German and Turkish pilots had almost absolute air superiority. They could go where and whence they chose. Air raids were common amongst the lighthorsemen to the point of great annoyance. The first recorded capture of a Taube took place on 8 October 1917. Monday, October 8, 1917 9th Light Horse Regiment Location - Um Urgan 9th Light Horse Regiment War Diary - Syllabus of Training for the week issued. The Regiment undertook routine work for the day. Air fight between three of our aeroplanes and two German aeroplanes took place at 0800. One German aeroplane was brought down about two miles east of the camp. Darley records the event too: "On October 8th two German aeroplanes flew over our camp and one was brought down about a mile to the east, this was th first plane that had been brought down behind our lines on this front." Bryn has possibly posted what appears to be an obverse side to this pic at: http://www.anzacs.org/plane.html It is not definitive that it is the same event due to the notation on the post card but that will have to be resolved. The Turkish and German air offensive was skilfully managed although in their case it was too few doing too much. For the British, it wasn't a shortage of aircraft as far as I could see nor a shortage of courage. The one thing that all the accounts make clear is that in aerial combat it was more than likely going to be a win for the Taubes. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 28 April , 2006 Share Posted 28 April , 2006 Bryn Here is the tail of the aeroplane in the above pic. The identification mark is clear. While a bit blurred, it is clear enough to see D636. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 28 April , 2006 Share Posted 28 April , 2006 Bill The machine is an Albatros D.III, serial 636/17. Oberleutnant Gustav Adolf Dittmar of Fliegerabteilung 300 was flying 636/17 when he was taken PoW at Wadi Gaza on 8 October 1917. Dittmar was brought down after a fight with 2Lt R C Steele (a Canadian) and Lt J J Lloyd-Williams from No 111 Squadron RFC, who were flying in Bristol F.2b A7194. 2Lt Steele was awarded the DSO for the exploit. You asked why the Central Powers had aerial superiority over Palestine until late 1917. The short answer is that the German aeroplanes used there were better performed than the obsolescent aircraft available to the RFC. Things changed when more modern British aircraft, including the Bristol F.2b and the SE 5a, arrived at the Front. I hope this is useful. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 28 April , 2006 Share Posted 28 April , 2006 Gareth G'day mate If you were a woman I would ask you to marry me. You are an old darling. This detail is pure gold. At this very moment I am putting together a chapter on the 9th leading up to Beersheba and this was one of the seminal events. It is now clarified and if I may use the information from your post I would be extremely grateful. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 If I may use the information from your post I would be extremely grateful. Bill Go ahead. Regards Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 ...because the German Air Force guys simply are superior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Mates There is another pic of this event at: http://www.equusplazanz.com/abouthorses/nz...mp/Image-25.jpg This appears to be a rear view of the above towing photograph event recorded in Post #1. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Bill Having got the Saturday morning shopping out of the way, I tried to do a little more research on the capture of 636/17. Canadian Airmen in the Great War says that 2Lt R C Steele was from Birch Creek, Saskatchewan, and was awarded the DFC before being killed in March 1918. I can't find an R C Steele in Airmen Died, nor in the CWGC records, but 2Lt Thomas Lancaster Steele MC from No 111 Sqn RAF was killed while flying a Nieuport on 10 April 1918. Incidentally, 2Lt R C Steele is mentioned in The Sky Their Battlefield as flying in what was probably the last combat for a DH 2 (possibly A2628) on 8 August 1917. These things are sent to confuse us. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Gareth Just wondering if I could intrude on your knowledge for another request - do you know the airfied Dittmar was stationed at? Judging the location of the downing I believe it could only be from either Beersheba or Tel esh Sheria. We know the planes who shot him down, two new Bristols came from Deir el Belah. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Bill Sorry, but despite a good look through sources that I thought might have had the information you seek, I can't find the location of FA 300 on 8 October 1917. Someone must know. Perhaps you could ask the specialists on German aviation at http://www.theaerodrome.com. Cheers Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 29 April , 2006 Share Posted 29 April , 2006 Gareth G'day mate I really appreciate your help and will follow your lead. Thank you for your kindness and generosity. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 1 May , 2006 Share Posted 1 May , 2006 Bill Further to my earlier post, it looks like FA 300 was based at Beersheba in October 1917, as I have an article in front of me that mentions its move from Beersheba to Samakh in November that year. Ironically, in view of events a couple of decades later, the Germans in FA 300 had a good relationship with the Jewish settlers in the area around Samakh. Regards Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 1 May , 2006 Share Posted 1 May , 2006 Gareth G'day mate You the mailman - always delivering on time. Thank you very much. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 Gareth G'day mate Following up on our conversation, I contacted the web site you have mentioned and posted a request for information. One fellow who seems to have a handle on these matters has responded - Gunnar Sonderbaum - his comments bear further examination. Here is the URL. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25520 Although I have asked him for additional information, what he has revealed seems to indicate that we might have been a tad bit off. Cheers mate Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 Bill Yes, it looks like the sources I relied on might not have been correct - perhaps translation problems were to blame, as the Germans appear to have kept immaculate records. The authoritative Casualties of the German Air Services 1914-1920 has the Albatros pilot as Oberleutnant Gustav Adolf Dittmar from FA300 when he was captured. I think I can answer most of the questions that you posed to Gunnar Sonderbaum; let me know if he doesn't get back to you. Cheers Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 9 May , 2006 Share Posted 9 May , 2006 Bill Today I came across a copy of One Airman's War, edited by Mark Lax [iSBN 1 975593 16 0] which is the illustrated and annotated diary of Joe Bull, a mechanic in No 1 Sqn AFC. Bull mentions the capture of Albatros D.III 636/17, and there's a few photographs of the machine, plus a group photo of officers from FA300, including Oblt Dittmar. I was intrigued to learn that 636/17 was eventually presented to the Khedive of Egypt. Cheers Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 9 May , 2006 Share Posted 9 May , 2006 Gareth, Mate I told Bill about this book on the other site and the three photos of that aircraft in the book. I didn't have the item to post them to him so if you can at least post the photo of D636 in allied colours on this site as its a good one. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 10 May , 2006 Share Posted 10 May , 2006 Steve Your wish is my command (at least on this occasion). Cheers Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 10 May , 2006 Share Posted 10 May , 2006 Gareth and Steve Thanks for the pix and the stimulus to post them. Much appreciated. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 10 May , 2006 Share Posted 10 May , 2006 Mate, Its a great shot. Young John Bull looks the aussie soldier in dress and manor. What took me was the RFC roundel on the aircraft. Wasn't the large ring Blue and the middle dot red not the reverse as shown in the photo? Or is the black and white photo not show that correctly. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 10 May , 2006 Share Posted 10 May , 2006 Steve In the orthochromatic film in common use during the Great War, red came out as nearly black, while the ultramarine used for the blue portion of the roundel appeared as a light grey. Remember that the contemporary rudder striping for both British and French aircraft was [from the front] blue-white-red. In the 1920s the RAF ceased to mark rudders with colours, as it was believed that the additional paint detracted from the performance of 'high speed' aeroplanes. Rudder stripes were reintroduced to the RAF when squadrons went to France in 1939 and found that their French allies used the absence of rudder striping as an indication that an aircraft seen from the rear was German. As a form of distinction from the French, the order of colours on RAF machines was reversed to be red-white-blue from the front. In 1940 rudder stripes were abandoned in favour of the fin flash still in use. The RAF fin flashes were also adopted by the other Empire air services. I hope this is interesting. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted 11 May , 2006 Share Posted 11 May , 2006 Bill, Is there any chance you might post MY image of the downed German aircraft on this site Please@!!~ Cheer G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 11 May , 2006 Share Posted 11 May , 2006 Geoff No worries mate. Here it is. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 12 May , 2006 Share Posted 12 May , 2006 Gareth I have an answer which might compare with your own knowledge: Vfw. is the short form of Vizefeldwebel, or roughtly, Sergeant-Major in English ranks. Ltn. dR. is short for Leutnant der Reserve, or Reserve Lieutenant, roughtly equivalent to Pilot Officer. Stab is the German word for Staff. Edgar is a relatively common name in German. Hope thaat's what you have. I am also getting in contact with a fellow in Israel who is one of the foremost scholars on early air power in Palestine. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now