new zelland ceremony at chunk-bair

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

hi lads

i hae got wind o that Howard boycotted an official ANZAC day new zealand ceremony at chunuk bair,Gallipoli, preferring instead to attend a barbeque on the shores of ANZAC cove

is that true?

tuna

[Ozzie]

I beleive that John Howard did not go this year, Tuna.

Kim

[Auimfo]

I think that must be an 'ill wind' blowing Tuna.

Howard didn't travel to Gallipoli this year. Bruce Billson, Minister for Veteran Affairs was the Australian Government's representative this time.

And I can't think of any particular reason why they would be boycotting it. Did your source give you any idea why or how this rumour began??

Tim L.

[cazna]

Hi

From memory it was last year that there was some talk of John Howard not attending a NZ ceremony.

Duncan

[Ozzie]

I felt that there was a bit of grandstanding last year, totally uncalled for given the Day.

This year was much more simple and intimate, if I can use that word.

Kim

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

my source wis just a webpage,tim,but i think John Howard’s decision na tae attend must of ben perceived as an insult by veterans, senior defence officials, and, new Zealand visitors at gallipoli, they really seem to have taken it to heart

i wis also suprised to hear that he didnt attend,tis a tradition. and what really concerns me is whether there is something behind it.to me tis certainly a worry and tis certainly nae sendin the right signal oot

tuna

[Auimfo]

But neither did the French, NZ nor British Prime Minister (to name just a few). They all sent representatives and I think it is only fair to accept that they can't attend every year. They are also expected to be present at commemoration ceremonies in their respective countries.

I didn't hear any rumours about Howard not attending the NZ ceremony last year - can you provide a link to the webpage tuna. I'm pretty sure it's probably a bit of a beat-up and wasn't as bad as it's made to sound.

Tim L.

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

tim,i cannae recall the url,

[Kate Wills]

Tuna,

You did agree to post in standard English. Remember?

[Eceabat]

Pals,

it looks like everyone is right on this one. John Howard was not in Turkey for the 2006 commemorative ceremonies, he attended the Dawn Service in the Australian capital Canberra. The standard schedule is for the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand to attend the Gallipoli commemorative services every five years. In the other years, the countries are represented at ministerial level or, as in Australia's case this year, by the Governor General. Last year, England was represented by Prine Charles, this year by the ambassador, as is usually the case. At the Dawn Service, Turkey is represented by the deputy governor of the province of Canakkale, and at the other services by a minister, this year being the Forestry and Environment Minister Osman Pepe.

However, it is correct that last year, when he did attend the ANZAC Day ceremonies on the Gallipoli Peninsula, he did not attend the New Zealand ceremony at Chunuk Bair. Howard instead was at a barbeque down at the site of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission complex at North Beach. It should be noted that the NZ Prime Minister, Helen Clark, did attend the Australian commemorative ceremony at Lone Pine last year, before of corse taking part in the New Zealand ceremony at Chunuk Bair.

The Australian Prime Minister did come under fire for not attending the Chunuk Bair service, which I believe was the first time that the senior Australian representative at the ceremonies did not do so. However, he said he did not realise that the two ceremonies could have been fitted into his schedule.

Frankly, I'd say that his not being at Chunuk bair was part and parcel of the wider stuff up that marked last year's ceremonies, including the Bee Gees, the rubbish and the road works.

This year, the full Australian delegation did attend the New Zealand service.

Bill

[Auimfo]

Thanks for clearing that up Bill. I completely forgot the G-G attended this year.

You're right about last years ceremonies - the whole thing seemed to be a rather large stuff up from beginning to end.

By the way, I read in the newspaper that Turkish officials announced to journalists proposed new simulation centres, roads and facilities for the Gallipoli peninsula. Do you have any detail about these and is it with a view to protecting the heritage areas from any further man-made or natural damage.

Here's a link to the article http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/tur...5861286509.html

Tim L.

[Ozzie]

Oh, no! I shudder to imagine what the future holds.

Kim

[Eceabat]

Hi Tim,

yes, I was at the same press conference as the journalist who wrote the piece for the Age and the general details are correct.

The simulation centre idea has been around for a while, though no location for the site has been made public. From what I understand, it will help give visitors the "Gallipoli Experience" through audio visual productions, displays etc. What exact form this is to take I am not sure (I also don't know if the Gallipoli Experience includes bad food, dysentry and flies).

To date, Turkish authorities have constructed or upgraded about 35 to 40 kilometres of roads on the peninsula, with the total plan being for another 80 kilometres of roads to be worked on. This includes the road on Second Ridge in the ANZAC sector, taking in Pine Ridge, Lone Pine through the front line sector and then up to Chunuk Bair. This one scares the hell out of me.

Unfortunately, Turkey's Forestry Minister at the press conference refused to take my questions and, when I approached him following the press conference I was "kindly" told to go away. Thus I couldn't get any confirmation about the Second Ridge road, when it will start (it is in the plan), how wide it will be and will the work be done in an environmentally and historically sympathetic manner (like the Cove road was for example).

The good news is that a team of Australian historians and geologists are to visit the Peninsula to start the historical and envirnmental survey of the region, as agreed between the Australian and Turkish governments. These guys are from the University of Melbourne. Of course, it is up to the Turkish officials to take this information on board and use it.

and Kim,

I shudder when I see the present, the future terrifies me

Cheers

Bill

[Auimfo]

Bill,

Sounds like you've made yourself a few enemies there. I'm not overly concerned about a simulation centre as long as it isn't placed smack bang in the middle of an important heritage area of the Peninsula. I've been to Gettysburg in the U.S. and found the information centre there quite well set up with a large floor map and regular 'shows' using the map to explain the battle. Something respectfully done along these lines would be agreeable.

The roads on the other hand.......now there's a disaster just waiting to happen. And I'm not holding my breath waiting for any environmental protection of the area.

The article in the Age really hit the nail on the head when quoting the local journo "The changes are not about "protecting the sites, they are about show business."

Tim L.

[Eceabat]

Tim,

like you, I have no problems with the simulation centre, and indeed think it could be a sound addition to the facilities on the peninsula, depending on where it is located. Turkish authorities are currently studying other similar sets ups, including the Gettysburg centre so there are hopes for a good outcome on this one.

The Turkish journalist and historian cited in the article was Gursel Goncu, who along with another well known historian Sahin Aldogan, have recently brought out a very good book on the campaign (sadly no plans to bring out an English edition just at the moment, despite my prodding). Gursel is one of the leading Turkish campaigners against the excesses of the Turkish authorities on the peninsula and despite being one of the leading experts on the campaign is very much persona non grata with the National Park officials (given his comments in the article you quoted you may understand why.

Cheers

Bill

[alliekiwi]

Commenting on an old thread:

Yes, last year there was definite ill-feeling about Prime Minister Howard neglecting/ignoring the 'NZ' in ANZAC by preferring to attend a barbie on the beach than the New Zealand service. Especially as it was the 90th commemoration.

Ninety years to the day after New Zealand and Australian soldiers stormed the beaches at Gallipoli, Australia's Prime Minister John Howard displayed intent to abandon nine decades of ANZAC spirit. Howard's decision to abandon plans to attend the New Zealand ceremony at Chunuk Bair was a boycott. Context justifies the assertion.

For over one month prior to Anzac Day New Zealand and Australian foreign affairs officials exchanged emails and calls seeking to resolve John Howard's insistence that he would not be attending the Chunuk Bair service.

A compromise was sought - the itinerary staggered to ensure time and opportunity was assured. Unlike former commemorations where services ran at the same time, the 90th anniversary services would be staggered so as to allow for all leaders - Prince Charles, Helen Clark, and John Howard to attend the dawn service, the Australian service at Lone Pine, and the kiwi service at Chunuk Bair.

Rest of the article here: Australia Alters Course On ANZAC Spirit

This year they saved face a little by flying the New Zealand flag alongside the Australian flag on the Sydney harbour bridge.

Foreign affairs contacts say the snub was not personal but rather an example of a deeply help contemporary Australian belief that ANZAC Day is for Australians.

I'd agree with that. I see 'Anzac' used interchangeably for 'Australians' all the time, with no thought that anyone else is part of that. It's even used by non- Australians in that manner. I was on one board and saw someone post a thread 'Anzac Day - in commemorating for all the Aussies on the board', when there were heaps of kiwis as well.

Allie

[Eceabat]

Allie,

in the case in much of Turkey it is not so much the role of the New Zealanders being lost in the term ANZAC as the entire identity of both Australia and New Zealand. I have actually been asked where exactly the country of ANZAC is located as a Turkish chap couldn't find it on the map and he had seen a number of news articles saying the ANZACs were coming to the Gallipoli Peninsula to commemorate the Canakkale Campaign.

In the broader scope of things, the role of the British, French and other nations who fought in the campaign is often forgotten here in Turkey too, except for the part played by the British imperialists, especially Winston Churchill, in forcing the poor colonial troops (should that be dupes?) to do all the fighting. Of course, there is something of an emphasis on the actions inthe ANZAC sector as that iw where Mustafa Kemal (later Ataturk) first gained his spurs.

Cheers

Bill