What killed members of the RGA ?

[Kathie]

Were gunners killed by shells from enemy artillery or from their own ammunition exploding or did guns themselves explode or did guns fall over and crush gunnes etc?

I am interested to know how gunners fared casualty wise compared to other branches of the military? For instance vis a vis the infantry I assume gunners had a better casualty and survival rate? Or am I very wrong.

What I havent been able to find out is why so many members of the 15th Siege Battery were injured and/or killed on the 24th September 1917. Several of them are buried at Tincourt all having apoprently been injured at the same time? Was antyhting recorded anywhere?

Thanks

Kathie

[T8HANTS]

to the first part of your question yes to all four types of incident/accident. Being killed by the motive power that moved the gun, such as horses or trucks was another hazard

My own Gt Uncle listed below, died in a CCS while his battery was in transit 15 miles behind the lines, so it was either very long range counter battery fire, or some form of accident. I have often wondered if it involved Driver Street of the ASC who he is buried alongside, and died on the same day.

In general terms being a gunner was possibly safer than being in the infantry, but just as hard work. Premature explosions within a gun while not frequent were not that rare, especially as the guns became worn. There is even film of a French gun exploding in one of the episodes of the BBC's The Great War.

If your siege battery has a number of deaths on the same day, it will be either counter battery fire by the Germans, or a major accident, you will have to track down the battery war diary, which is probably lodged at the National Archieve at Kew.

Gareth

[SMG65]

Kathie

Read ' The War Diary of the Master of Belhaven' - a classic written by Lt Col Ralph Hamilton.

You'll get a real feel of what it was like to be in the artillery, and how they died.

You will also never go to the Lille Gate or walk along the Rue de Lille in Ypres without recalling what he wrote for 31st Jan 1916 to the middle of March 1916, in particular the 11th February.

Regards

Sean

[kildaremark]

Kathie,

According to Farndale's history of the Royal Artillery, the crews of the 4.5 inch howitzers called themselves the "suicide club" as due to the low quality of the ammunition, it frequently exploded in their own guns. These premature bursts and the chance of dropping shells on your own infantry put immense strain on the guncrews.

I don't know why it was specifically the 4.5 inch howitzers ammunition that was so poor - perhap a munitions expert ou there might enlighten us?

Mark

[Hoplophile]

The two most important causes of premature explosions during World War I were hairline cracks in the bodies of high explosive shells and faulty fuzes.

The hairline cracks were caused by attempts to reduce waste in the manufacture of shell bodies. That is to say, portions of a piece of steel that would have been discarded in peacetime were sometimes made into shell bodies. This greatly inceased the incidence of hairline cracks and thus, when the propellant charge went off inside a gun, the danger that the flash would reach (and ignite) the high explosive inside the shell.

Faulty fuzes caused prematures by being too sensitive to the forces generated when the propellant charge was fired.

All things being equal, guns were more susceptible to premature explosions than howitzers. However, as howitzers were more likely than most guns to fire high explosive ammunition, quite a few howitzers were destroyed in that way.

[KONDOA]

"I don't know why it was specifically the 4.5 inch howitzers ammunition that was so poor "

These short barrelled guns had a considerable kick for their size, so much so that the sights had to be removed when fired. Shell weights were 40 or 50 Lb and as Hop has said above there was a risk of casing failure. The 4th Cape SAGA (12 Howitzer Battery) at Kondoa Irangi managed to wreck their guns in this manner.

Roop

[CSMMo]

There is a good reason why St. Barbara is the patron saint of the Artillery (worldwide). That has to do with explosions at the gun. These problems still exist, as a sister battalion of mine suffered losses in training in the 1980's when a hairline fracture in a projectile caused the entire tube to be blown off an M109 Howitzer. It caused serious burns and broken bones to the three man crew inside the turret.

Another WW1 source of casualties to the unit I am studying was counter-battery fire and snipers. The exploits and difficulties faced by these units aren't widely known as there is just one book written about the mountain guns in WW1 (so far!).

Mountain Guns could position themselves up very close to the front line trenches and provide very effective anti-machine gun fires and fire shrapnel directly at assault waves which would create giant gaps. This made them a valuable target for enemy artillery and they experienced tremendous counter-battery response when they engaged (which was daily). They were also a valuable sniper target and were particularly vulnerable due to their proximity to the front lines of trenches and the fact that their gun duties precluded self defense with rifles or pistols. After a little over two months in Gallipoli, two batteries of mountain guns became one and they weren't brought back up to strength until they were called upon to land with the first troops at Suvla Bay in August.

They were extremely effective at a place like Gallipoli (and quite popular with the Infantry they supported) but there just weren't enough mountain guns or crews trained to operate them to replace losses.

Mike Morrison

[Kathie]

Thank you. Unfortunately the war diary for the 15th SB is missing so one simply has to speculate on all tyhe possible reasons for so many casualties.

Thanks

Kathie

[kildaremark]

From the War Diary of the 14th Heavy Battery...

A few interesting snippets....

July 9, 1916

About the 6th there was a blow back, due to a defective tube on No 3 gun, setting fire to cartridges in the emplacement. Sgt Keane and some gunners seriously burned. Cpl Holmes at personal risk rescued one of these men while ammunition was still burning, for which he was afterwards awarded the MM. Sgt Keane afterwards died of his burns.

Two gunners were killed and four wounded in this incident.

Sept 5, 1917

"Bombed by enemy aircraft....one man killed and four wounded"

A Lt Scott and Sgt Jackson also won the MC and MM respectively for keeping smoke candles lighting well in front of the battery position to distract German shelling after the Germans had shelled their position.

What's a blow back??

Mark

[essdee]

Kathie

15 Siege battery were operating with 21 HAG during the period in question having returned on the 14th Aug from a 2 week stint in 72 HAG east of Arras.

21 Aug. 171 Siege are shelled out of position and are forced to move south into 27th HAG area.

20th Sept - 27th HAG. 144H battery arrived in relief of 22 H Bty, all officers & 80 men all suffering from effects of gas.

22nd Sept. - 21 HAG. Supported 120th Inf. Bde in raid R8 Trench Farm.

28th Sept. HQ & one sect. forming 1st Echelon of personnel of 15 siege & 240 siege leave for 5th Army.

These two HAG's were covering a front of approx 10 miles as the shell flies, from roughly Vadancourt to Gouzeacourt and as you see from the few relevent entries from their diaries, batteries had been accurately registered and caused major losses due to HE and gas.

Some fairly accurate counter battery work had been carried out against British batteries up to this point, so following the raid of the 22nd it may be reasonable to assume more batteries had exposed themselves to German spotters, 15 Siege being one.

They were on the 24th in the following positions, the battery was in two sections, X 9a 1.4 & F1c 0.7. Villers Guislain & Epehy.

Stuart

Mark

A cartridge, a bit like a shotgun cartrige, was fitted into a tube in the end of the breech and used to initiated the main bagged charge/s. If you get a fault at this point you get a mini flamethrower shoot out of the rear of the breech.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Artillery men could also receive casualties from aerial bombing.

[olosangus]

I have a copy of the Royal Artillery War Commemoration Book published in 1920 which states (and lists) 3,507 officers of the RA killed in the war and states that 45,442 other ranks were killed. I think that this represents around 10% of the men who served in the artillery. This represents a slightly lower proportion than the avergae overall for the army but certainly doesn't suggest that it was "safe" job !!

Simon

[Terry]

I recently acquired a nice war/victory medal pair with Canadian memorial cross to a gunner with the 27th Bty.,7th Fd.Bde.,CFA killed in action 11 Oct.,1916 on the Somme. A check of the war diary gives meaning to your initial inquiry. Two men died that day; one to a German 7.7 shell and the other to a premature round. No way of telling which fellow was my man.

My father's unit, the 8th Bty.,2nd Fd.Regt.,RCA (1st Canadian Division) made its way through the Sicily campaign fairly unscathed until near the end, when an American bomber crashed literally on top of their position, killing seven men and wounding twenty-two.