can't understand medal record

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

Hi,

I'm a new member researching my Grandfather, Sydney Black from North Shields. My mother said he was a Seargent in the Tyneside Irish or Northumberland Fusilier but could have transfered to the Royal Engineers and was awarded the military Medal, but the only record I can find is his (I think) Medal record. This gives so little information though and I hoping somebody may understand the information and explain it.

The medal record is saved here:

Medal Record

The only information it gives is:

Name - Sydney Black ./MM

Corps - R-E

Rank - Cprl

Regmt No - 139661 (can't find a reference to this)

then (this means absolutely nothing to me)

Medal Roll B

Victory RE / 197 . 75

Page - 15912

British - long scribble?

thanks is appreciation,

Paul

I forgot to add - the Military Medal was awarded for action in the Battle of the Somme

[SteveE]

Paul

Here is his entry for the MM in the London Gazette #30573, dated 13 March 1918.

Link to the Gazette is Here

Regards

Steve

[Stebie9173]

The 139661 number is his personal number in the Corps of Royal Engineers (think National Insurance number).

Bad news : The Medal Roll information refers to the Medal rolls held at the National Archives at Kew. Unfortunately, R.E. medal rolls very rarely give a unit reference. The swiggle is two lots of "Do" (i.e. Ditto) linked by a line, by the way, meaning that the medal roll reference is the same as the one above.

It looks like he was entitled to the Victory Medal and British War Medal, which were awarded as campaign medals to those who served overseas in an operational theatre of war. Those that served overseas before 31.12.1915 would have a "Star" medal. from what you have posted this would imply that he went overseas after 1.1.1916. His number seems to be one that would have been issued in 1915, so that fits.

The good news is that the Military Medal records generally give a unit reference.

This is the announcement of his MM in the London Gazette:

London Gazette 13-3-1918

139661 L./C. S. Black, R.E. (North Shields).

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

If you download this medal card it should give you his unit details:

Description Medal card of Black, S

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Engineers 139661 Lance Corporal

Catalogue reference WO 372/23

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=5

MMs are very difficult to track down to when and how they were won. Checking local newspapers of the time is the best bet. He would probably have won the MM some time around December 1917.

Steve.

[SteveE]

As for the Medal Index Card, it shows that Sydney Black, MM, was a Corporal in the Royal Engineers with service number 139661.

As there is no information in the "Theatre of War first served in", "Date of entry therein" or "Star" boxes it can be assumed that he first went overseas after 1st January 1916.

The other information against "Victory" and "British" is the Army Medal Office reference for his entry in the Royal Engineers' Medal Roll. RE/101 B75 15912 (the long scribble underneath is 'ditto') can be translated into a WO329/xxxxx reference number at the NA which may give some additional details like his unit but with the Royal Engineers this is unlikely.

Hope this helps

Steve

[Stebie9173]

The Gazette reference to North Shields on the MM announcement would also imply that you have the right man there.

Steve.

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

Paul

Here is his entry for the MM in the London Gazette #30573, dated 13 March 1918.

Link to the Gazette is Here

Regards

Steve

I really appreciate this information,

thank you very much,

Paul Black

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

The Gazette reference to North Shields on the MM announcement would also imply that you have the right man there.

Steve.

Hi,

this is really usefull to know that I have the right person,

thanks again,

Paul Black

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

As for the Medal Index Card, it shows that Sydney Black, MM, was a Corporal in the Royal Engineers with service number 139661.

As there is no information in the "Theatre of War first served in", "Date of entry therein" or "Star" boxes it can be assumed that he first went overseas after 1st January 1916.

The other information against "Victory" and "British" is the Army Medal Office reference for his entry in the Royal Engineers' Medal Roll. RE/101 B75 15912 (the long scribble underneath is 'ditto') can be translated into a WO329/xxxxx reference number at the NA which may give some additional details like his unit but with the Royal Engineers this is unlikely.

Hope this helps

Steve

many thanks for this information;

I should have added the Militart Medal was awarded for action in the Battle of the Somme,

many thanks,

Paul Black

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

Paul

Here is his entry for the MM in the London Gazette #30573, dated 13 March 1918.

Link to the Gazette is Here

Regards

Steve

Many thanks for this - I tried searching the archive myself but gave up

as there were numerous entries,

thans again,

Paul Black

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

As for the Medal Index Card, it shows that Sydney Black, MM, was a Corporal in the Royal Engineers with service number 139661.

As there is no information in the "Theatre of War first served in", "Date of entry therein" or "Star" boxes it can be assumed that he first went overseas after 1st January 1916.

The other information against "Victory" and "British" is the Army Medal Office reference for his entry in the Royal Engineers' Medal Roll. RE/101 B75 15912 (the long scribble underneath is 'ditto') can be translated into a WO329/xxxxx reference number at the NA which may give some additional details like his unit but with the Royal Engineers this is unlikely.

Hope this helps

Steve

Thanks,

it is rather confusing for somebody not in touch with military terminology,

thanks,

Paul

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

The 139661 number is his personal number in the Corps of Royal Engineers (think National Insurance number).

Bad news : The Medal Roll information refers to the Medal rolls held at the National Archives at Kew. Unfortunately, R.E. medal rolls very rarely give a unit reference. The swiggle is two lots of "Do" (i.e. Ditto) linked by a line, by the way, meaning that the medal roll reference is the same as the one above.

It looks like he was entitled to the Victory Medal and British War Medal, which were awarded as campaign medals to those who served overseas in an operational theatre of war. Those that served overseas before 31.12.1915 would have a "Star" medal. from what you have posted this would imply that he went overseas after 1.1.1916. His number seems to be one that would have been issued in 1915, so that fits.

The good news is that the Military Medal records generally give a unit reference.

This is the announcement of his MM in the London Gazette:

London Gazette 13-3-1918

139661 L./C. S. Black, R.E. (North Shields).

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

If you download this medal card it should give you his unit details:

Description Medal card of Black, S

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Engineers 139661 Lance Corporal

Catalogue reference WO 372/23

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=5

MMs are very difficult to track down to when and how they were won. Checking local newspapers of the time is the best bet. He would probably have won the MM some time around December 1917.

Steve.

Thank you very much for this information and you time;

it is very much appreciated,

thanks again,

Paul Black

[Guest Paul in Whitley Bay]

Thank you to everybody who replied...

When I was about 5 or 6 year old, my grandfather let me play in the attic. It was filled with rifles which I could pick up by the the barrel but where far to heavy to get of the ground. I remember the Standard flag and beonetts and bullets (not somethig wich chilren should play with today) but I had fun playing with it all,

thanks again,

Paul