Infantry Base Depots - allocation

[Greenwoodman]

Had a furgle around the LLT, and read that part of "Call to Arms", but couldn't find a list of which IBDs served which regiments when they changed from purely divisional IBDS. Can anyone help?

And can anyone fill in the workings of the "posting-out" dept of the IBD. For instance, how was the destination of the infantryman decided? Did he arrive as a complete novice knowing which battalion he was destined for. Wounded, recovered soldiers obviously did, as many went through Etaples on their way back to the front line and their old battalions. Or did the novice arrive unattached and initially destination-less.

Who then triggered the novice's departure? Was there a system whereby a number of draftees were sent to each battalion automatically say each fortnight? Or did the battalion request reinforcements (presumably via division)?

And finally, if an IBD served more than one regiment, did IBDs post say South Staffs soldiers to Notts and Derbys battalions, should the need have arisen?

[Charles Fair]

Good question. From what I am seeing in the unit I am researching, the relationships between IBDs and relevant regiments became more tenuous as the war went on. By late 1917-18 it seems pretty random, esp after 21 March 1918.

To give one case study: Private FAJ ‘Tanky’ Taylor enlisted on 4 September 1917 with the intention of getting into the Royal Flying Corps. However, he turned out not to be suitable for some unspecified medical reason, and was instead deemed suitable for the infantry. Despite coming from Salford, he was ‘shipped off without delay’ and ‘was sent with about 40 others to Winchester’ where he was allocated to the 3/19th, the depot battalion of the 19th London Regiment. He was naturally annoyed at not being sent to join the Manchester Regiment (his brother’s), instead of ‘this damn cockney battalion’. Taylor ‘never did develop any feelings of loyalty of pride in [the] regiment. In any case, no one took any trouble to tell us about [the] regiment or its traditions.’

Taylor had been training with the 19th London Regiment for some months when the German March offensive broke. Drafts were created from the 3/19th, and Taylor was separated from his ‘old RFC pals’ more or less at random and shipped across the channel in another draft. In early April he was in Etaples, where he changed regiments yet again. He writes in his book 'The Botton of the Barrel' (1978):

“We were regrouped and parted with our insignia identifying us with the 19th City [sic] of London Regt or St. Pancras Rifles for ever. Our cap badges, shoulder names, fancy buttons we all discarded to be replaced by insignia linking us now to the 2nd Battalion Worcestershire Regt. As I had never developed any particular loyalty for the London Regiment, into which I had been unceremoniously thrust a few months previously, and no one had taken time or trouble to tell us about the traditions or battle honours of the regiment, it was not difficult to transfer to a new one.”

Certainly by 1918 the novice arrived 'unattached and initially destination-less' as you say.

Who then triggered the novice's departure? Was there a system whereby a number of draftees were sent to each battalion automatically say each fortnight? Or did the battalion request reinforcements (presumably via division)?

Almost certainly the latter - in 47 Div units had to provide daily/or weekly returns of strength to Div HQ - there is evidence of this in Bde and Div A&Q War Diaries. I think these would have triggered off reinforcements. I have seen no evidence of regular weekly/fortnightly postings.

I have found it worthwhile cross checking the War Diart strength returns with the printed strength retuns in WO 114 e.g. Overseas Monthly Returns of the Territorial Force Serving Abroad (WO114 52-54). This latter class suggests that there was a 'push' factor operating as well prior to and during major offensives, with IBDs and the man power supply chain being stuffed with men in order to provide reinforcements quickly after an attack. This is very noticeable with 47 Div units on the Somme for example.

I would say that the chances of a wounded man geting back to his unit in 1918 were remote, whereas this would have been the norm in 1915/early 1916.

Hopefully Charles Messenger might be able to give some insight.

Charles F

[Greenwoodman]

Thank you for that, Charles. Food for thought.

[charlesmessenger]

Charles Fair has explained the mechanics very well on the scanty knowledge we have. A major frustration in this field is that not many of the IBD war diaries survive and in Call to Arms I was able only to give examples to show the changes that occurred during the Somme battle, when IBDs ceased being dedicated to individual divisions. I have been unable to find any instructions from GHQ BEF on how the reinforcement system should operate.

I would say, however, from my current studies on the 8th Royal Fusiliers that the chances of a man returning to the same battalion after being wounded were less than 50% it would appear, and this is from late 1915 onwards. In most cases the man did return to the same regiment. Yet the likelihood of even this happening did, as Charles points out, decrease, certainly post Third Ypres onwards.

There are, too, numerous incidents of men being rebadged prior to leaving UK. A large number of cavalrymen in Reserve Cavalry Regiments were transferred to the infantry in early summer 1915. There were also numerous 'comb outs' in both Uk and France of medically fit men in the services, notably the ASC, in an effort to keep the infantry up to strength.

In summary, there is a lot more research work that needs doing on IBDs and I would personally welcome any additional light that anyone is able to shed on them.

Charles M

[Graham Stewart]

Charles & Charles,

According to the ORBAT of the British Armies in France, November 1918 you had the following Infantry Base Depots;-

"Guards".

'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'H', 'J', 'K', 'L', & 'M'.

"Garrison Bn's".

"Australian".

"Canadian".

"New Zealand".

Sadly there's no indication what units passed through them, but may I suggest that 'A' to 'M' may have been Command based and sub-divided between Regulars & Territorials.

Graham.

[jhill]

As the War Diaries of the Canadian Base Depots are available on-line, we can at least follow their activities a bit. Of course, as usual, there is always a gap concerning the particular bit of information you are after, and the information may or may not give a hint as to what happened elsewhere.

In this case it seems to have gone something like this:

The Canadian Base Depot went to France in late summer of 1915 (about when the Canadian Corps was formed). There seems to have been some initial confusion as to what their duties and reporting structure was. Of course, most activity eventually concerned infantry reinforcements and early in 1917 four Infantry Base Depots appeared (one per Division), with the original Depot handling everything other than infantry.

These Depots handled new and returning men from England as well as discharges from hospitals and elsewhere in France. In general, the men were on the books of their eventual battalions from the time they left England, although I have seen evidence of a number of 'transfers'. It seems that each Infantry Depot was, in fact, concerned with men for the battalions of its particular Division.

The organization changed late in 1917 due to perceived shortcomings in the training of reinforcements. In the Canadian case, this was addressed by the formation of the Canadian Corps Reinforcement Camp, which, under Corps control, took over the existing Divisional schools and the Entrenching Battalions. As this eventually took over much of the role of the Infantry Base Depots, these were folded back into the General Base Depot in the spring of 1918. Parallel changes were also taking place in the British organizations, but they may have differed somewhat.

I think this is more or less correct, but, of course, I would appreciate clarifications.

[Charles Fair]

There are, too, numerous incidents of men being rebadged prior to leaving UK. A large number of cavalrymen in Reserve Cavalry Regiments were transferred to the infantry in early summer 1915. There were also numerous 'comb outs' in both Uk and France of medically fit men in the services, notably the ASC, in an effort to keep the infantry up to strength.

Plenty of examples of these transfers into the London Regt - blocs of men in these units appear in my database. Also 3,000 RAMC men transferred unto 60 Div in may 1916. There are also big blocs of men being transferred into the Londons from the KRRC and 2/5th Buffs whilst in the UK.

Graham - your post has got me thinking. It is possible that the IBD strengths are shown somewhere in the strength returns in WO 114. Some of the WO 114 documents give some useful clues on the ORBATS of some of these units as well as their strengths.

I have recently been looking at the 'Strengths of the TF at Home 1914-1919'. (WO 114 43 onwards) This is a fortnightly return of every TF unit with establishment. It includes the strengths of TF depots e.g. the 19th London depot had a strength of 200 or so men in Jan 1916 - as it gives medical category it shows that they were mainly wounded men on convalescence. It also gives the strength of all the Provisional Battalions, and shows how the PB bns were derived from the TF divisions, the rough date of creation of each PB, and organisation into Provisional Brigades. A real goldmine of data on some really obscure units.

[Graham Stewart]

Charles,

Got a twinge in me loins then, as I didn't know about those strength returns for the Home Base T.F. units. I have all of the N.F. ones taken from their T.F.A. Minute Books up until the 1st Feb 1917. The T.F. Depots associated with Northumberland are;-

No.77 T.F. Depot - N.H.? & R.F.A.

No.78 T.F. Depot - R.E.

No.81 T.F. Depot - Tyne R.G.A.

No.76 T.F. Depot - 1st & 2nd Line 4th Bn.

No.80 T.F. Depot - 1st & 2nd Line 5th & 6th Bn's.

No.75 T.F. Depot - 1st & 2nd Line 7th Bn.

No.79 T.F. Depot - R.A.M.C. & N.C.B.

The establishments laid down are greatly exceded by probably recruits/returnees i.e. No.76 T.F. Depot, Establishment 1 officer 5 O/R's, actual 1 officer 287 O/R's. So it could be possible that the IBD's may also have strength returns. Are there no A.C.I.'s concerning the formation of IBD's and associated units?

Graham.