Germans leading attacks at Gallipoli

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

In previous discussions, Bob Lembke pointed out in geat detail the means employed by the Germans to arrive at Gallipoli. It was a long and difficult process for the volunteers to arrive at the place.

With that in mind, I came across this article in the Times, 17 June 1915, p. 8.

The story is self explanatory.

The commentary I was looking into was the presence of junior German officers leading Turks in active combat as early as June 1915. Perhaps some folks know about this event. To me it is a mystery as to how the officer arrived, why the officer was absorbed in this manner - vis - to lead a company or two, and all the other practical issues that needed to be resolved just to make such a move possible.

Cheers

Bill

[Jack Sheldon]

Bill

I cannot tell you who he was, but probably what he was. From the earliest days of the land campaign a small number of machine gun teams was formed from German sailors who were in the theatre. They were placed at points of maximum danger and tactical importance and played a disproportionate part in stiffening Turkish resistance and breaking up Allied attacks. The leading lights seem to have been Oberleutnant zur See Boltz, and Leutnants zur See Thomsen and von Rabenau. The last named was captured, severely wounded, along with Obermatrose Peters (who successfully escaped), during the intense fighting of 4 Jun 15 on either side of Gully Ravine, which the Germans referred to as the Sigindere (presumably the Turkish name). At least some of the machine guns which did such tremendous execution amongst the atackers were actually manned, as I say, by German crews that day. German accounts hint strongly that in places the Turks gave way, but the German crews were just able to hold on until the defence could be reorganised. There is no doubt that this handful of Germans continued to operate in this area in the later battles for Gully Ravine and I can only assume that it was one of the group of naval personnel who features in your account. There are known to have been many Turkish patrols during this period - often motivated by the chance to capture or steal food, drink and tobacco, which were in desperately short supply.

As far as I know only about 50 Germans were KIA, or died of wounds or disease during the entire campaign. The great majority of those who fought there were holding key command or staff appointments, or were with the artillery - so very few were in close contact with Allied troops.

Jack

[Jonathan Saunders]

Jack is certainly correct about the German Naval MG crews - one such team were mistaken by the Turks for British and severly beaten.

I believe there were as many as 500 German military serving at Gallipoli - my source is an individual with vast knowledge on the campaign - and so I assumed this included army as well as Naval personnel, probably not infantryman as Jack points out but possibly specialists advising the Turks in signals, wiring, etc as well as the artillerymen.

Also I seem to remember the son or grandson of a German national that served on Gallipoli uses this Forum, but I cant remember who.

[The Plummed Goose]

Also I seem to remember the son or grandson of a German national that served on Gallipoli uses this Forum, but I cant remember who.

BOB LEMBKE

Good morning Jonathan ... have a thoughful ANZAC day

eric

[Jonathan Saunders]

Also I seem to remember the son or grandson of a German national that served on Gallipoli uses this Forum, but I cant remember who.

BOB LEMBKE

Good morning Jonathan ... have a thoughful ANZAC day

eric

Yes good morning Eric. I, strangely for a Brit, find my mind drawn to ANZAC today rather than Helles or Y Beach.

Hopefully Bob will pick up on this thread later and confirm the extent of the involvement of the German military at Gallipoli.

[Jack Sheldon]

Slightly off-topic, I know, but I do have a couple of written sources concerning Gallipoi, which would enable me to name quite a few appointments filled by German personnel during the campaign if any one is interested. It might take a few days because I am off up north to do some work on the Somme and at Le Cateau from tomorrow.

Jack

[Guest Langemark1418]

Hello all,

i have a friend in Cologne whose great grandfather fought at Gallipoli. I will try if he is willing to supply details and photos. All I can say here now is that he was NOT in a Naval Batallion but served as an officer in a turkish unit. I will try to see what i can do.

Auf Wiedersehen,

Rob

[Hedley Malloch]

I can substantiate the stories of Turkish MCG crews commanded by German naval officers from oral family history. According to my grandfather, a RMF solider during the Gallipoli campaigns, there were such crews. Further, he said, that when the crews were captured, the Turks were taken prisoner, but the German officers were shot out of hand.

[Guest Langemark1418]

What can I say to that...not a good time and place to be german at Gallipoli then...

[bob lembke]

Hi, guys;

Just noticed the thread. Yes, my father served at Gallipoli.

Let me review what I know about Germans at Gallipoli; I am not an expert here, but will know more when I get about to writing my "Georg" book, a book about my father, a real character.

Yes, I have seen the figure of about 500 Germans of all stripes at Gallipoli. I don't remember where I saw this, but I rarely read secondary sources, especially on Gallipoli, as most of them seem poor. (That is an opinion formed several years ago.

The only combat formations were the MG formations, mostly or entirely sailors, and my father's volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie. It numbered 200, and very quickly they had 80% casualties, many sick as well as killed or wounded. I think that my father was in a group of replacements smuggled in through Romania in civvies. He described that trip in, unfortunately, more detail than his actual service at the front. From his description of the terrain, and another comment, he must have been on the ANZAC front. After the initial losses they seem to have been very careful with these skilled troops. I suspect that he was involved supervising mining warfare activity on the ANZAC front; when the war came he was in a school of construction engineering, and was a journeyman mason; he had planned to become a Festungsbau=Offizier for a career.

German officers were given a Turkish rank one grade higher than their German rank. Many proudly used their honorific title years after the war; e.g., Bey, Pascha, as in Liman von Sanders Pascha.

I am surprised about the German officer leading a charge; there were many brave and skilled Turkish officers in the field grades; the major assistance of the Germans was in skilled staff work, IMHO. My father loved the Turks; he fought from 1915 thru 1919 (Freikorps) and served in the Schwartze Reichswehr, and felt that they were the best, except for the men of the best German storm battalions, which he had served in (Rohr und Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer). Not technically, but in spirit. He did not think much of most soldiers, German and Allied.

I have heard of at least one volunteer MG unit being over-run, and then killed. I have also heard of (from an Allied source) of Australians killing captured German officers after the fighting was over.

My father was not wounded at Gallipoli, but contracted malaria; my grand-father also got it in Russia in 1915; it weakened him for the rest of the war.

Bob Lembke

PS: Anyone having info on the German Pioniere in particular at Gallipoli please pass it on; I would be most grateful. This is one tough campaign to research, and Turkish is an absolute bear; I have not learned more than a bit of chit-chat. Possibly the world's hardest major language.

[Auimfo]

Excerpt from my Grandfather's diary whilst at Anzac:

Saturday 5th June, 1915

Our troops charged the enemy's trenches about 1 a.m. succeeded in putting some machine guns out of action. Captured about 30 Turks, 7 of which were brought to us wounded. Immediately after charge our own injured started to come in and kept us very busy till 7.30 a.m. when I came off duty, fixed up our wounded at our dressing station. Heard 120 more Turks and a German officer have also been captured. Fighting was going on all morning with heavy rifle fire, our destroyers also put in a few shells, eased off considerably this afternoon and was fairly quiet. On duty 7.30 p.m. Nothing doing up to 12 midnight. Had swim this afternoon. Not so many bathing today, weather fine, water rather cold.

Don't know whether this helps as it can't be confirmed other than being a rumour he heard.

Tim L.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I was wondering how wide spread were these German officers at the front.

Now accounts all show mention of German officers even if they were and NCO, but how many are true?

Are there any photo's of German officers/NCO's taken prisoner at Gallipoli or were they all killed and so disappeared.

Can this be a story like the Women sniper story.

Can the wearing of German medals like the Iron Cross given raise to the story that an Officer was German rather then Turkish.

Can can this also be racist in nature that a Turkish officer couldn't have done it so a German (whiteman) must have?

We all know what the British Higher command believed about the Turks so did this filter down the ranks?

Just some question's I was thinking of.

Cheers

S.B

[bob lembke]

Mates,

I was wondering how wide spread were these German officers at the front.

Can the wearing of German medals like the Iron Cross given raise to the story that an Officer was German rather then Turkish.

Can can this also be racist in nature that a Turkish officer couldn't have done it so a German (whiteman) must have?

We all know what the British Higher command believed about the Turks so did this filter down the ranks?

S.B

Steve;

To give you my opinion about your questions.

I have, for example, read Kannengeister, who was the CO of a Turkish division. I don't think that there were many German COs below divisional level, except possibly in some special technical units, some artillery, etc. The Germans generally were not able to get more men there, and the Turkish field-grade officers were generally good. There were lots of reasons why it was neither needed nor desirable to put German officers down in the battalions, etc.

As to Turkish officers "looking" German, possibly. They would generally be more "refined", educated. The Germans wore a mix of German and Turkish uniform elements. Some Turk officers did have Iron Crosses, and German officers the "Gallipoli Star". Also, many or most Turkish officers spoke German, well or badly, less English, and if captured they might have been attempting to communicate in German.

As to thinking an officer would have to be a "white" man, and as to a low opinion of the Turk, I must remind everyone that not only did the Turks have serious shortages, handicaps, etc. (for example their shells would fire but usually not explode on the other end; when in November 1915 real German artillery ammo and six guns arrived it put the Allies in a bad place); but at almost every phase of the battle I understand that the Turks were outnumbered. If the Brit command looked down on the Turks is suggests that they were out of touch with reality. (I'm not the first to suspect that, I think.)

Bob Lembke

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bob and Steve

I strongly suspect that the story might be a beat up. There are a couple giveaways. The charge occurs at night and the "officer" never made it to the defenders trenches. The dead are laying in front of the trenches and thus there can and was no confirmation of the story, only a guess made via a periscope.

The information provided by all the pals who have contributed to the story indicate that this story is no more than just another one of those myths. I am sure an officer was killed that night. I suspect that it was a Turkish officer.

Steve's comments about racism are quite pertinant. The Australians and British thought of Turkey as the sick man of Europe and the quality of the Turkish soldier was illustrated over the last three Balkan Wars which saw the disintegration of the Turkish Empire in Europe. Consequently, they thought this enterprise at Gallipoli was to be a walk over. When it went pear shaped, they could not understand it. What the British and their allies had forgotten was the fight and recapture of Adrianople by a rejuvinated Turkish army just two years before. So to give an answer to the well led Turkish troops, no one could conceive that it was indeed Turkish field officers leading them, they came up with the story of the German officers. After all, German officers were considered to be the best trained in the world. Thus it could only be Germans leading the Turks to victory.

So we have the makings of a myth born out of confusion. It made sense of the British desfeat.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

Hi All,

Whilst I accept the facts presented by many people about specific groups of German officers being present with Turkish O/R’s I tend to think that Bill is probably quite close to the mark with his comments about this specific example. Rumours and facts often become muddied on the Peninsula.

I too have read a similar account somewhere. But I have read period accounts of German spies and a women sniper. They are all in all likelihood a fabrication. There are many examples of these types of stories that have become entwined with the known facts of the campaign.

cheers

Geoff S

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Yes thats what I was thinking, but to add to what Bob was saying.

German officers and men (Navy) were on Gallipoli, but only in the first stages of the battle where they in the front line or directly engaged.

During the following months they held an advizorary roll at HQ's, but its clear they must and did get down to the front lines.

But did they led attacks? There is no clear proof that they did other the general coments in letters and diaries to have seen them but no evidence to confirm it.

Did the Turkish officer who had been awarded the Iron cross look like a German officer in Turkish service? I think this would seam more then likely, as many photos of the time show these awards on Turkish officer uniforms.

I also appears there is no record of any Germans being captured to prove one way or the other, and what looks like a German officer can easerly be Turkish and only close questioning would sort his nationality out. But none of the stories record this so the only evidence is "he looked like a German officer".

But Bill's idea of some type of racism being the under line cause of these stories is the most probible.

I as always I am open to being wrong here and will gladly cocide to that evidence.

Cheers

S.B

[Geoff S]

You also find references to sightings of German officers in diaries like that of Sapper W. Morey (from pge 172- From Duntroon to the Dardanelles- A biography of Lt William Henry Dawkins)

'Snipers were very bad the first week and German Officers were found in our trenches, giving orders to our men. They must have been brave men as the risk was very great'......

The 'sightings' of German officers were noteworthy in published accounts at Anzac- particulary in the early days of the campaign at Anzac. The naming of German officers trench is proof of that fact. But I think that it was likely that many of these stories were just plain incorrect. The rash of sightings were based on rumours, as the men expected that they had been stalled by the experience of what surely must have been German officers. But the terrain and general confusion were most likely the major contributing factors for many of the sightings, that were simply second- hand stories that the writer himslef never witnessed.

Cheers

Geoff S

[bob lembke]

Yes, I remember reading an account of a German officer jumping in an ANZAC trench and shouting in English ordering the men to flee the trench for the rear. I am sure it was poppycock.

What is a bit more sinister than the "woman sniper" stories, etc. are accounts I have read from the AEF, when they newly arrived in France, and the first-person accounts saying: "Yes, there are a lot of German spies walking about behind our lines, we shot several of them in civvies just yesterday", or stuff like that; seemingly shooting people just out of hand. One can imagine the sophistication of some National Guard unit just freshly arrived from Iowa or somewhere to quickly determine in the field which seeming French civilian walking down the road actually was a spy, knowledge of languages and dialects, ability to distingush an Alsacian from a fiendish Hun, etc. The account I remember best was a good distance before the front, and there were no French units about, just grab the "spies" and shoot them. General Ballard's memoirs discuss the programs of propaganda he ran to make the men of his division hate Germans, etc., and the men may have reacted to the scare stories of fiendish tricks and ruses of the Hun by running out and shooting a few "spies". War is hell. Ballard, incidentally, recounted how in Mexico in 1916 (before the US was in the war), he organized survelliance of his own Pennsylvania National Guard officers in the field on the incursion into Mexico that he suspected were "German spies".

Bob Lembke

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bob

G'day mate

Just getting back to the supposed German officers giving orders in the Australian trenches at Gallipoli, I have no problem with this at all. However, we must be clear as to what we mean German officer - an officer who bore alliegance to Germany or an officer of German origin within the AIF. If the former then I would say that the rumour has a snow ball's chance in hell as being true. However, with the latter, I don't have any trouble with the concept at all.

The officers who were Germans in the Australian trenches were just that, German Anzacs. Most came from South Australia where there was a large German population. Even men born in Australia but living in these communities would still retain the German language. I mean, the Barossa Valley, the centre of South Australian German culture was commonly referred to as "Der Barossa Tal" rather than the Anglicised version. It would not be unusual for an officer with German ancestry to retain a German accent while giving orders.

Now we go to the confusion of battle. The "fog of war" is intense with men moving everywhere, units being broken up and the like. It was easy for men of other units to hear these German officers give commands and think the worst. So the legend is formed.

If you read the divisional Routine Orders there are mentions of German spies going on all the time. Just about every month there was another German spy hanging around. How many German spies were actually caught? None. Bubkis. De Nada. There were no German spies at Gallipoli.

But the legend persists.

Cheers

Bill

[Geoff S]

Hi Bill,

From the example I provided from a diary entry, I think the inference is that they were 'German spys' -impersonating Aussie officers, which was clearly not the case...not German Anzacs....

There were no spys as you have noted... (or at least none that I have ever read of anywhere) - but Enzeder Bowler the head MP at Gallipoli mentions that they were always on the hunt for them....

FYI- the book that might be of interest to you is

Bowler of Gallipoli. Witness to the Anzac Legend.

by Frank Glen published ACT 2004

comments from a book serach engine

Study of the only New Zealand member of the Staff Corps at Gallipoli in 1915. As a Beach Landing Officer, Corps Provost Marshal and the first Anzac Beach Commander on Gallipoli, Edmund Bowler was in a key position to observe the events leading up to the landing and then the storming of the beaches and cliffs. Bowler was also the officer in charge of the Provosts during the Haret el Wasser riot in Cairo and this event is covered as well

Cheers

Geoff S

[Bryn]

Stories of spies at Gallipoli, especially in the first few days, were common, but unsubstantiated. Tired, nervous troops tended to repeat any rumour. The following gives a good account of one such instance, in which, even though the two mis-identified officers were clearly not spies, one paid for the misapprehension with his life and the other was wounded:

"To be mistaken for a Turkish spy in Australian uniform; to be fired at and bayoneted by British troops - such was the experience of one Australian officer on Gallipoli.

The 2nd Australian Brigade, under the late General McCay (5th Battalion, Lt.-Col. Wanliss; 6th, Lt.-Col. McNicoll; 7th, Lt.-Col. Elliott; 8th, Lt.-Col. Bolton), landed immediately after the 3rd Brigade on the morning of Sunday, April 25, 1915.

Elliott was wounded as soon as he reached the beach. Bolton, on the right, reached a ridge and dug in. The 5th, on the left, became much mixed with the 3rd Brigade, leaving the brunt of the attack in that sector to be borne by the 6th and 7th under McNicoll and his second in command, Major (now Major-General) Bennett, who probably got as far into Turkish territory that day as any other Australian.

On the second day false 'spy' orders began to arrive. 'Cease fire; British troops coming up on your right,' and so on. But they had little effect on the desert-trained Diggers of the First Australian Division. The four months of solid work at Mena had raised them to a standard of true war discipline that had never been excelled.

By Tuesday (27th) all hands had become more or less accustomed to the Turkish shrapnel, and gave it little attention. Officers and men had had no sleep, and were tired out, both in brain and body, but had to stick it for another couple of days until the arrival of some battalions of the Royal Marine Light Infantry gave a chance of relief.

These R.M.L.I. units were part of the Royal Naval Division which had suffered so severely a few months previously in Winston Churchill's Antwerp campaign. Their depleted ranks had been filled with raw lads of 18, pushed all untrained on board ship and hurried out to the Peninsula.

The take-over of the 6th Battalion's front by the Deal Battalion began at dusk on Thursday (29th), and even when safely hidden by high ridges, the newcomers ducked behind every available bush whenever a solitary bullet whined past hundreds of feet overhead. It was nervy work even getting them into the front trenches.

The tired Aussies enjoyed a couple of days on the seaward slope of the hills, cooking bully beef and biscuit, swimming and sleeping. But on Saturday evening word came from the Brigadier (McCay) that the Deal Battalion had the 'jumps,' and that the 6th would have to take their place again. While the battalion was packing away its mess tin, the C.O. (Col. McNicoll) went up to the line and got the Deal's C.O. (Col. Bendyshe) to go through the trenches with him.

There was plenty of evidence of 'nerves.' The ordinary decencies of trench life had not been attended to. The battalion had had casualties, and the remaining men had crowded together for company, leaving long stretches of undefended trench. Unaimed fire was continuous, causing a serious waste of ammunition.

Bendyshe and McNicoll - the latter accompanied by a 'runner' named Ward - squatted on their haunches in front of a group of men while the Australian pointed out the necessity of saving ammunition and firing only at a definite target. The two C.O.'s then moved along to another group, and the advice was being repeated when one of the Deal men began to stare hard at McNicoll, whose tanned skin, unshaven chin, and dirty, torn tunic were rather a contrast to the tidy English officer beside him. Bendyshe spoke to the man, who by now had started to straighten himself up. 'Don’t stand up, man, your head will be over the parapet.'

He answered, 'Yes sir,' then raised his rifle, aimed at McNicoll, fired and missed, but his bullet shot Colonel Bendyshe dead.

Pandemonium broke loose. Men ran from both directions along the trench towards the spot, firing wildly. An English sergeant-major and two other men were shot. McNicoll caught one bayonet in his hand and deflected it so that it passed through his tunic - in at the button and out at the shoulder -only grazing the skin. Another bayonet left a triangular hole in his left sleeve.

A loud-voice sergeant at last took charge, and ordered the men back to the parapet. They knocked McNicoll down on to the bottom of the trench on his back, and the sergeant told one man to 'Put your bayonet in his chest, and if he speaks a word press your trigger.' Silence was golden. They searched their 'spy' prisoner, taking his notebooks, revolver, etc.; then got him on his feet, tied his hands behind, blindfolded him, and marched him out under armed escort through a communication trench.

The first man this party met was the 6th Battalion's Adjutant, whose language when he recognised his C.O. maintained the highest traditions of the A.I.F. The Medical Officer (Dr. Black) pumped some morphia into McNicoll's arm, and took him down to a Field Ambulance on the beach, where he received the best of attention from Royal Naval Division surgeons.

On the next morning, Sunday, May 2, Generals Birdwood, White, and McCay called at the ambulance, and learned that the 'spy,' who was warmly congratulated on his escape, would be fit for work again next day. McCay was pitiless in his comments on the offenders. 'I'm going to make those Deal devils dig.' he said, and he kept them at pick and shovel work until their nerves settled down.

Colonel McNicoll took up duty again on the morning of Monday, May 3. The 6th were then coming out of the line for the second time, all very tired, especially Major Bennett, on whom had fallen the awkward job of relieving the Deals on the previous Saturday night. All Gallipoli Diggers will recall the nick-name they attached to the initials R.M.L.I."

‘Marsova’ [pseudonym]. ‘ “Nerves” : A Gallipoli Panic’, in Reveille. RSS&AILA, NSW Branch, Sydney. 31 Mar 1931, p58.

[Ozzie]

Ta Bryn. love the 'maintained the highest traditions of the A.I.F.'

The above shows just what war does.

regard

Kim

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bryn

G'day mate

Thanks for that spine chilling tale. Made me shiver with horror. What gets me is that even being the RMLI CO was no guarantee of being shot as a spy by his own men. That is truly terrifying and even more chilling if this was a case of fragging.

Cheers

Bill

[Bryn]

An interesting aspect of the incident is that, nowhere in the records at Kew (National Archives in London), is there a record of any investigation or court-martial regarding the death of the CO of the Deal Battalion.

[bob lembke]

An interesting aspect of the incident is that, nowhere in the records at Kew (National Archives in London), is there a record of any investigation or court-martial regarding the death of the CO of the Deal Battalion.

I have posted this before in another context, and in more detail, but my father told me in great detail how he and some other men of his company deliberately shot his company CO to death on a manuver grounds, after he came back very drunk from drinking with fighter pilots, who he bought drink for with money stolen from the men, and got the entire company up at 3 AM and marched them our to "manuver". He also was a coward, and never went into combat. The company sergeant major (another abuser of the men) marched the company back to barracks, they were surrounded by infantry, and for three days officers came into the barracks and took depositions, interviewed men, etc. After three days the infantry was withdrawn and the officers had large barrels of beer brought to the barracks for the men. There was no punishment. (It was obvious that it could not have been an accident.)

My relevant point is that I have a lot of information about his regiment, the complete death roll, casualty records by company, and I have constructed a roster of almost all officers and many of the OR, and the Oberleutnant seems to have disappeared from the rolls and records entirely. Material written by the regimental CO states that my father's company was almost the only company in the regiment which did not lose a single officer in the war, and those records included killed, missing, and died of wounds, illness, or accidents. Probably the regiment's court of honor decided to write the disgraceful officer out of the records and history of the regiment. (He did many shameful things.)

Bob Lembke