KIA but not noted on MIC

[Guest Mark Bretherton]

William Bretherton (330706) 1/9th The Kings (Liverpool Regt).

I have traced his medal card and there is no mention of his death in action on 22 Sep 1917 at Ypres. He is listed on the TYNE COT MEMORIAL, Grave or Reference Panel Number: Panel 31 to 34 and 162 and 162A and 163A.

Is there any reason why the information is ommited from the MIC?

[Coldstreamer]

Hello

medal index cards are not always the full story - its just a means for strarting the research - and they are not always correct! There was a war on ...

from a purely medal being stamped point of view the soldier being killed was neither here nor there

Ian

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The MiC were not for "research" but were for internal WO/Medal Office reference to the Medal rolls,which would normally contain such information,The MiC & rolls being, as stated, an instrument for the issue of Medals @ the time only,Public access was not a consideration.

[Promenade]

Mark,

You may be interested to know that William Bretherton enlisted on 27/10/14. He was the second son of Sgt William Bretherton who served at Salonica and prior to the war lived with his parents at 12 Hamilton Rd, Everton. He was 20 years old.

Do you have a photo of him that you would be willing to share?

Promenade

[Guest Mark Bretherton]

Thanks to all for such a speedy response - just discovered the site and it's a complete gem!

I have some info on William jnr but not his enlistment date, so info is much appreciated. He also had an older brother (my grandfather) John Bretherton who served with the Scots Guards. I have some info on John (11056), he arrived in France on 25.2.15. He was discharged in 1916 (according to anectodal family history this was due to 'shell shock' following an incident where he was buried in a section of collapsed trench 'on the Somme'), however medal card just says 'discharged' with no date or further info, but if you have access to any more or could point me in the right direction, that would be much appreciated.

Unfortunately I don't have any photographs of any of these three.

Interesting that Sgt William Bretherton (his medal card has him as Corporal, how did you find out he was a Sgt?) was 44 years old in 1914.

[Guest Mark Bretherton]

I have some info on William jnr but not his enlistment date, so info is much appreciated.

Even though William enlisted in October 1914 it would appear he did not serve overseas until after 31 December 1915 as his medal card does not indicate he was a recipient of the 14-15 Star. I know he was in France in July 1916 because we have a postcard from him and obviously he was in Ypres in 1917 when he was killed.

Is there any particular reason why he was not overseas between Oct 1914 and some time in 1916 ? We have him as with 1st/9th Bn The King’s Liverpool Regiment however he autographed his neice’s autograph book with 2nd/9th KLR.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

It was possible for William to be in both the 2/9th and the 1/9th battalions! The main site shows that 2/9th were formed in October 1914, but that bn didn’t go to France until Feb 1917. It was a second-line Territorial Force unit and initially they would have been supplying drafts for the first-line bn (1/9). So that might account for him not leaving Britain until after 1915 (only about a third of those who served did anyway) and also for signing an autograph book 2/9 KLR, but serving with the 1/9. Have you looked at the medal roll to see what bns that were listed for his service abroad?

The medal index cards are indexes to the medal rolls, as far as I know they are not indexes to the memorial plaques: they were simple finding tools relating to medals for hard pressed clerks who had access to the full service records if they needed them. The information we have is only what was on 1 side of these cards and it is possible that KIA might have been on the back.

As I understand it the regulations were that the medal roll entry had to be typed in red if the recipient had died, but those clerks had a lot to keep track of and some slipped through the net. It happens, the clerks were human.

[Guest Mark Bretherton]

Have you looked at the medal roll to see what bns that were listed for his service abroad?

No, not yet. I've only just begun the research and found the MIC online, however I now live in Sydney which makes visiting the NA more of an effort than if I was in the UK!

Unfortunately apart from the autograph book the family has little else relating to the family's WW1 experience, which is a shame because my great grandfather and three of his sons (one being my grandfather) all served - no medals, no pictures .... a real shame.

Thanks for your explanation of the movements relating to 1/9 and 2/9 that helps to explain much.

Given he was almost 18 years old when he enlisted in 1914 and I have no reason to presume he wasn't fit etc, any idea why would he have been held back in England with 2/9 for so long (over 2 years)?

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Given he was almost 18 years old when he enlisted in 1914 and I have no reason to presume he wasn't fit etc, any idea why would he have been held back in England with 2/9 for so long (over 2 years)?

Sorry, I didn't spot that you're in Sydney!

That would explain a lot, the official age for oveseas army service was 19 so it sounds like he was in 2/9 until he was old enough and then sent out to replace a casualty in 1/9 if he was with them in 1916.