Records At MOD - Hayes

[andyspiller]

Does anybody know how long records are to be retained at Hayes? I have rec'd a copy of the service record of one of my great-uncles but in many ways it poses more questions that it answers! My great-uncle left the TA in 1938 and died in 1963 - surley the records should be released soon.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Andy - on the basis of past form, and if you took discharges till the end of WW2 as the next cut-off point, then you might expect the release to be about 2015 - But - last time I spoke to someone who is involved with the discussions ref release of MoD records to the National Archives (with specific reference to Officer and OR service records) his answer was "not in our lifetime".

It is a very pertinent issue of course, because it ties up the records of many men who served beyond the end of WW1 or re-enlisted for WW2. Perhaps you may want to take it up with your MP - ask him about the Freedom of Information Act 2000 ?

regards - Tom

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

I can understand there being a reluctance to release WW2 records now - a substantial number of veterans are still living, although as I know personally with the passing of a grandfather 2 years back, this number is dwindling quite fast now, however I would have thought that the MOD would be glad of the space that these records take up - this is said with total respect to the men they are about!

Ian

[chris basey]

Tom

Very interested in the comment 'not in our lifetime'. Do you think that is a personal view or has a policy been laid down, do you know?

It's a topic that I would happily write to my MP about as I think I might get a sympathetic hearing - Keith Simpson MP (Military Historian and Author). I keep coming across ex-servicemen who eventually retired in the late 20's and 30's for whom we can know nothing of their WW1 serivce.

However, shall have to do some homework first. Do you know anything about Freedom of Information Legislation or a good source for simply worded advice?

Best wishes

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Very interested in the comment 'not in our lifetime'.  Do you think that is a personal view or has a policy been laid down, do you know? ............ Do you know anything about Freedom of Information Legislation or a good source for simply worded advice?

Chris - I think you should take that "advice" as off the cuff, but my own feeling is that it is more likely to be accurate than not.

For some words on the FoI Act 2000 see NA's notes at >

http://www.pro.gov.uk/about/foi.htm

NA seem to have interpreted FoI very literally - I was at one of the consultation meetings earlier this year and was pretty amazed at just how rigid their interpretation seemed to be, to the point where I couldnt see how it would ever "work" - one idea circulating at the moment is that the fees to provide information under FoI will be set at a level which the market wont bear, and consequently the "problem" will simply go away because there will be no great demand for information via the FoI route.

NA have to have the system up and running by 2005, and it will be interesting to see how it pans out. In the meantime we have the ongoing sorry saga of the remote document copying service which is being widely interpreted (by Joe Public) as an NA "research service" - with some extremely unsatisfactory results. NA's answer to this (again, off the cuff) is that if JP cant be bothered to read and understand the terms & conditions of the remote copying service, and choose to believe that they are getting a research service, then that is JP's problem, not NA's. In the meantime financial targets are being met, and that's the important thing.

Would be interested to hear how you get on if you raise the record release issue with your MP.

Regards - Tom

[andyspiller]

Guys

Could someone please explain what the "remote document copying service" is please. My man's service record does not explain a period in England (April 1915 to Jan 1916) or any detail of his being a POW (Aug 1917 to Dec 1918). I really would like to get some more info on these periods of his service. Do you think that the MOD may be prepared to answer these questions?

Regards

Andy

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Andy - the NA's remote document copying service is a facility whereby you can ask NA to provide you with a quote to copy specific documents or parts of documents, provided you supply them with an ID for the document and tell them specifically what sections you want.

The theory is (for example) -

"please give me a qoute to copy the war diary of 7th Signal Company RE, file ref WO95/1646, from October till December 1914" -------- (*) ----- "thank you Sir, that will be £18 incl p&p" ---------- "here's £18, please go ahead" ------------ "thanks for your £18, here are the copies"

What it seems to have turned into is -

"My grandad was in 7th Signal Company RE between October and December 1914, can you please give me a quote for copying any parts of their war diary which mention him" ---------- then just repeat from (*) above - and JP then spends a few hours scratching his head and wondering why he has got a pile of papers, none of which mention his g-father.

This can get mildly amusing if you come across someone who has gone in with the scenario - "my grandad was called Fred Weatherspoon and he served in WW1, can you please give me a quote for supplying his service papers" ---- (repeat as (*) above) - and they get sent a set of service papers for a Fred Weatherspoon who was born in Glasgow in 1885 and killed on the Somme in 1916 - which is a bit odd because granddad was born in Coventry in 1899 and they used to go and see him for Sunday lunch in the 1960's ! ............. but you asked for a set of papers for a Fred Weatherspoon who served during WW1, and that's precisely what you've got.

There's a lot more to this situation than meets the eye - but no need to go further.

With regards to the info "missing" from your service record - no point approaching MoD because they no longer have any influence or control over the records of men discharged before 1921, and they will refer you straight back to the NA.

Regards - Tom

[andyspiller]

Tom

Thanks for the info. I have a readers card @ Kew so I guess that there is nothing new as far as the copying service is concerned. One point however, my man did not retire from the Vics until 1938 - how do I stand with that one with regard to those fine people at Hayes?

Regards

Andy

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Andy - I'm afraid you are stuck with MoD. You could try writing to them, give them their original reference and date of the "report", tell them there are inconsistancies or "gaps" and ask them for photocopies of the originals.

It's an interesting scenario because they have already accepted that you are bona fide and have released information to you - so they couldnt claim exemption from FoI in this particular case because they have effectively conceded that FoI applies.

Regards - Tom

[andyspiller]

Tom

Thanks for the info - apologies for the delay in replying, I missed the notification e-mail.

I will give the MOD a try and see what happens. If I get anything, I'll put up a post to let people know what happened.

Kind regards

Andy

PS Off to F&F on Sunday for 5 days - life is a bitch sometimes!!!!!