SMG65 Posted 11 April , 2006 Share Posted 11 April , 2006 Having just finished the excellent 'Haig Diaries' I am ever more of the opinion that we won the war in spite of Lloyd George. My opinion of him has never been high, he waited for Haig to die before putting the knife into him, a sign of a true coward. Could anyone with a deeper knowledge of Lloyd George enlighten me as to whether my opinion of him is correct. He surely must have had some redeeming features. Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 11 April , 2006 Share Posted 11 April , 2006 Ah LG baiting, no I promised I wouldn't, the Dr said it could harm me and they would take me back in! Yes he had reedeming features, he hated war and tried to stop people dying. However honesty was not a trait he knew much about. He knew how to fight his corner and how to survive. To call Haig after his death was cowardly but what really grates with me is his 'I wanted to get rid of him but' sort of attitude. If he believed that Haigs was murdering men then he should have stood up and said so and sod his career and the consequences. Alas! Not my fav political Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 11 April , 2006 Share Posted 11 April , 2006 he waited for Haig to die before putting the knife into him, a sign of a true coward. This is obviously a reference to the publish date, which I think was 1933 that you correctly point out was after Haig's death. In fairness to Lloyd-George he finished writing his WW1 memoirs in 1923 or 1924 but he was unable to publish them for some reason, possibly because he still held office. I forget the reason but I am sure it was valid. I think during the immediate post-war period when Haig was still alive, Lloyd-George's opinion was well known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 Hi Sean I have always disliked Lloyd-George, but I tend to hate all politicians. He did manage to sort out the munitions problems but he also nearly lost us the war by slowing the rate men were sent to France/Flanders later in the war. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 DLG's "War Memoirs" are, in my view, a travesty. Self-interested, self-promoting, highly inaccurate. Very cleverly timed and marketed, it became a best seller - outstripped any general's memoirs in terms of copies sold by an order of magnitude - no wonder many of the myths created by the man have entered our consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 Can anyone recommend a reasonably unbiassed biography of DLG? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austen33 Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 Can anyone recommend a reasonably unbiassed biography of DLG? Phil B http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/listings/prog...0_4544_54166_90 I watched this on Monday and found it interesting - from my very limited knowledge of the subject matter I wouldn't say it was unbiassed Austen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 Not read it but from memory the best biography is by John Grigg (I think that is his name) - in at least two volumes, one of which nicely stradddles the war years. I share the doubts about DLG's intentions and we was a scallywag (being polite) in many areas. But - outside his PM role during the war - he did bring us the now much maligned state pension and I think helped sort out the scandal of poor munitions for the front whilst a minister. Also sold honours (as now!), had numerous mistresses (as now!), engaged in insider trading (as now!) and met Hitler on an ill advised visit to Germany (not possible now). Apart from that a great Welshman. Many say that the good outweighed the bad... Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 Well .. either one of three options. DLG a political genious and Haig the donkey DLG a vicious, opportunistic, demogougue and Haig, just trying to win as best he can DLG and Haig, both just trying to do what they can do to win but see things differently so work as high friction but still essential parts of the process ... If we go long enough we all come tot he conclusing that they, like everyone else were just muddling through ... although I LOVE to hate politicians ... and a man who was so egotistical as he had two wives and both accepted the fact ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 Chris someone gave me a copy of Lloyd-George's "War Memoirs", after reading ten or so pages I wanted to burn it but instead throw it in a dark place and have never looked at it since. A book as never had that effect on me before evan if a book is a bit boring or I do not agree with its views. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 Could a pleasant reasonable average sort of bloke lead Britain to victory in the Great War. I have no doubt that he was a conniving, double dealing, conceited SOB - but I also think that he had a great intellect, charisma in bucket loads - sounds like a good "skill-set" for the job in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 I have no doubt that he was a conniving, double dealing, conceited SOB - but I also think that he had a great intellect, charisma in bucket loads - sounds like a good "skill-set" for the job in hand. Not a bad "skill set" for a C in C, either! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 I would strongly recommend Spears' book 'Prelude to Victory'. He deals with the whole issue of politicians and their involvement in the prosecution of a war. The main focus is Nivelle and lead-up to the 1917 Chemin des Dames offensive. Thus French politicians take centre stage. Lloyd George features as well, with significant details about his involvement in the plan to place Nivelle in charge of Haig. LG was really taken by Nivelle's plans. The vignettes of 'Wully' Robertson's reactions are superb. Beautifully written. Really compelling and throws a whole new perspective on theses issues. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 12 April , 2006 Share Posted 12 April , 2006 LG's memorirs make great Book ends or door stops, a cracking wedger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetop Posted 13 April , 2006 Share Posted 13 April , 2006 Slightly off topic re LG but I am reading the book by Liddle Hart about WW1 published early '20's and Haig comes across a lot more sound than the other chiefs Sir John French,Joffre and Foch the French leaders.who seem to have been responsible for many of the more stupid wastages of men. The political needs to support the Russians by attacking in the west appear to have driven Haig into some advances such as the somme against his preferred judgement and I wonder how much LG forced the generals into campaigns they were not ready for. The book clearly suggestst that the German war economy and even the French was producing 10 times more munitions than UK until 1916 at least.The politicians were probably covering up their own shortcomings by blaming anyone else but themselves who got usi nto the mess in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Moretti Posted 15 May , 2006 Share Posted 15 May , 2006 One of those driving, eager, vital men without whom the national effort would not have been what it was, yet who in his dealings with the military was unbelievably underhanded. I am not sure who said it, it may have been Corrigan, but SOMEONE made the point that at least when Churchill disagreed so violently with one of his generals, he had the nerve simply to sack and replace him, rather than leave him where he was and keep on playing passive-aggressive. PAs are among the most annoying of the personality disorders, and dangerous if you are relying on them for life-and-death matters. Without him, the war might not have been won; with him, it was almost lost... and he tried to cover his naked Imperial butt by smearing mud on the name of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofatfortakeoff Posted 15 May , 2006 Share Posted 15 May , 2006 LGs memoirs are a historical contribution, as are Haigs. Now i aint read Aigs yet but I did do a fair bit of Lloyd George-I feel it may be a little reflective of peoples reading choice if they can't persist with the 'diverse' intellect of DLG-he is a bore but he is still worth looking up-these things have to be read to get a fuller picture of events. compare DLG with the frightening and somewhat prophetic paranoia of Ludendorff who managaes to omit himself from any blame of disaster whatsoever tht befell the German army. (Everyone must read the last chapter if nothing else.) Captain Cecil Moorhouse Slack summed it up rightly when he said that 'he (LG) was a dictator with few friends who deserved none' . A problem for DLG was and still is, was that was a 'philandering Welshman' who stood no opposition and thought that he always knew best-a little like Churchill in fact. (the Welsh Wizard) His opponents/fellows in the cabinet never forgave him for taking the War buy the scruff of the neck, and them into the bargain. Haig and LG after all did want to win the War, the best way they thought they could-and who it is of course laughable to think that in 1917 bringing more half trained troops into the frontline would have gained further success. What leader would not have blanched at the reports that Lloyd George received in 1917 from Passendael? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 15 May , 2006 Share Posted 15 May , 2006 What leader would not have blanched at the reports that Lloyd George received in 1917 from Passendael?Not to mention the predicted numbers of casualties that were submitted to him before the campaign opened. As it happens, the reports were not too far out from the numbers upon which LG gave his approval for the campaign to go ahead. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofatfortakeoff Posted 19 May , 2006 Share Posted 19 May , 2006 the reports were not too far out from the numbers upon which LG gave his approval for the campaign to go ahead. Robert Not just the casualty reports that were the issue though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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