Colour Sergeant

[J Banning]

Help!

I have been reading some letters lent to me by a friend of an NCO serving on the Somme with the Glosters.

His rank appears to be Colour Sergeant on a letter at the beginning of July but then is Company Quartermaster Sergeant at the end of the month. Is this a promotion? I always though that Colour Sergeant was a prestigious rank and the CMQS could also be the Colour Sergeant. Have had a look on the search facility but got throughly flummoxed - this is not really my area of expertise (if I have one).

Can anyone help here in explaining this? I freely admit to being most confused!

Cheers

[Graeme Heavey]

Ralph, the position of CQMS is an appointment. His rank should be C/Sgt. An RQMS is a WO2. I am unaware of any exceptions but someone will no doubt set us straight!

[Old Tom]

Hello,

Not quite sure if this is supported by regulation but a Colour Sgt is associated with infantry - because they have 'colours' - in the Artillery, Ordnance and Supply they would be staff sgts.

Old Tom

[Tom A McCluskey]

Ralph,

The Cardwell reforms brought about 2 Colour Serjeants in the Infantry Company. Their rank is an infantry equivalent of Staff Sergeant.

One held the appointment of the Company Serjeant Major (CSM) and one held the appointment of Company Quartermaster Serjeant (CQMS). Prior to Army Order 70 1915, the CSM would wear three stripes and a crown (as a Staff Sergeant equivalent in rank) and the CQMS would wear 4 inverted stripes. Regimentally, the CSM held the higher appointement - albeit the same rank.

Graham, no offence but the RQMS prior to Army Order 70 was not a Warrant Officer and was called the Quartermaster Serjeant (4 inverted stripes and an 8 pointed star). There were only 2 Warrant Officers in the battalion: The Serjeant Major (now called the Regimental Sergeant Major) and the Band Master. Prior to 1915 there was no WOII (Warrant Officer Class II).

After Army Order 70 (1915) the CSM was a WOII (crown). The CQMS was still a Colour Sergeant but now wore three stripes and crown.

hope this helps

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

OOPs! Sorry

1914

RQMS = 4 inverted stripes & 8 pointed star

QMS = 4 inverted stripes

CQMS = 3 stripes & crown

Tom McC

[Graeme Heavey]

Sorry Tom. I was quoting todays rank structure. So when did Infantry Colour Sergeants start wearing crossed flags instead of a crown above the stripes? Also Rifle Regts even today dont have a colour because our battle honours are carried by every rifleman on our capbadges and we still have colour sergeants!!

[J Banning]

Graeme & Tom,

Very helpful indeed, thanks very much for sorting out that particular jumble in my head so quickly!

Cheers

Ralph

[Muerrisch]

One held the appointment of the Company Serjeant Major (CSM) and one held the appointment of Company Quartermaster Serjeant (CQMS). Prior to Army Order 70 1915, the CSM would wear three stripes and a crown (as a Staff Sergeant equivalent in rank) and the CQMS would wear 4 inverted stripes. Regimentally, the CSM held the higher appointement - albeit the same rank.

Tom McC

Sorry, no, but nearly.

When the eight company organisation became four, the senior colour sergeants were appointed CSM, were paid extra, and retained [as you say] their three chevrons and crown until 1915.

However, the junior colour sergeants appointed CQMS retained their three chevrons and crown, and were awarded a smaller extra pay. You may have been confused by the existence of 'quartermaster sergeants' not appointed RQMS ......... there was in the infantry battalions prior to 1915 another quartermaster sergeant, four chevrons worn point up, and no star, next in seniority to the RQMS, and, like him, the last remnant of the old 'staff sergeants first class'. This soldier usually had a regimental title such as 'orderly room clerk' or 'orderly room sergeant' [usages varied]. Battalion group photos of the period show one sergeant-major [not usually called 'regimental' until 1914], one bandmaster [both WO], one RQMS, one QMS as clerk [both staff sergeants first class, with distinctive cap, and wearing a sword on parade], eight colour sergeants, and a slack handful of sergeants holding specialised appointments.

[Muerrisch]

Sorry Tom. I was quoting todays rank structure. So when did Infantry Colour Sergeants start wearing crossed flags instead of a crown above the stripes? Also Rifle Regts even today dont have a colour because our battle honours are carried by every rifleman on our capbadges and we still have colour sergeants!!

No, it was the other way round! Until 1902, in most orders of dress, the CSgt had crown, crossed flags and three chevrons. The introduction of service dress [drab] caused a rapid decrease in the wearing of the crossed flags on most orders of dress........ although chapter and verse is hard to find, and units in India etc seem to have been very varied in the date of change.

As for Rifles and Guards ................. !

[SPotter]

I wonder if someone would like to take up the challenge of writing the definitive article, booklet or whatever on this most confusing aspect of Army Ranks. I, for one, would be delighted to buy one!

Cheers

Steve

[Muerrisch]

It has been written, as a Special Publication of the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, by Major Nicholas Dawnay. Originals are very hard to come by, I fear.

More accessible sources [which require detective work to piece together] are the Clothing Regs of 1914 [if this is the period of interest], the Pay Warrant of that year, Kings Regs of that year, and the amendments which appeared in Army Orders from 1914 to 1918.

It has been my hobby for many years.

[SPotter]

It has been written, as a Special Publication of the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, by Major Nicholas Dawnay. Originals are very hard to come by, I fear.

More accessible sources [which require detective work to piece together] are the Clothing Regs of 1914 [if this is the period of interest], the Pay Warrant of that year, Kings Regs of that year, and the amendments which appeared in Army Orders from 1914 to 1918.

It has been my hobby for many years.

...and one that has led to the change of name, no doubt!!