Chris Noble Posted 15 December , 2002 Share Posted 15 December , 2002 Apart from the two major mine detonations on the 1st July 1916,(Lochnagar, and the Y-Sap mine), i have read reference to two smaller mines prepared under German positions opposite "Inch Street", at the south-eastern end of the "Glory Hole",each charged with 8,000 pounds of of ammonal. Were these mines at all detonated as i can't seem to find any reference to these mines been "fired"? Regards, Chris Noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 15 December , 2002 Share Posted 15 December , 2002 I have checked what info I have on this area for 1st July and can find no mention of smaller mines being blown. It would seem that the Glory Hole area was heavily shelled in the months before the attack and mention is made of mines being blown in the area in 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 16 December , 2002 Share Posted 16 December , 2002 There's nothing about them in The Work of The Royal Engineers in the European War 1914-19: Military Mining (W & J MacKay & Co Ltd 1922). Which is almost the 'official history' of military mining. Where did you see the reference - in a war diary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 16 December , 2002 Author Share Posted 16 December , 2002 Cheers Bob. The only reference i have read as regards to these mines been fired, is in the BattleGround Europe book Pozieres, under the chapter refering to the 34th Division's involvement on the first day of the offensive. Info turns up in the strangest of places! Regards, Chris Noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 16 December , 2002 Share Posted 16 December , 2002 I think he must have been confused with some of the smaller charges at the Tambour? As I've said a few times on this and other forums, Battleground Europe books shouldn't be seen as primary source material. Sadly it appears that only a few of them are ever written with reference to war diaries etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 16 December , 2002 Author Share Posted 16 December , 2002 Cheers Paul. If only they could write as accurately as you! I also believe what i read in the papers! Regards, Chris N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 16 December , 2002 Share Posted 16 December , 2002 The Official History, Military Ops, 1916 Volume 1 page 286 says "The mining programme included eight large and eleven small mines...two near La Boisselle with two small ones...". But having one through the pages about III Corps assault I can not see any further reference to the small ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 16 December , 2002 Share Posted 16 December , 2002 Chris, I checked some German sources I have regarding the possibility of additional mines but I could only locate references to two being set off. It is possible in all of the confusion that the smaller ones were set off and simply not recorded. The mines at La Boisselle prior to July 1st were about six times larger than the ones you mentioned. As a high percentage of the defenders were either killed or wounded there is the possibly that any reference to the smaller mines was lost with them. I did some background on La Boisselle and mining and discovered that the French started mining in 1914 and this was followed by the Germans who set off their first mine on 6 January 1915, followed by another on 11 January 1915. Per a German Pioneer Officer's report 61 mines were set off by both sides between April 1915 and January 1916 and averaged between 20,000-25,000 kilograms of explosives each. On 2 January 1916 two British mines were set off followed by a German mine at the end of the month to distract the British from a raid nearby. The British set off a mine on 26 March 1916 in conjunction with their raid against the 110th RIR. I believe I may have a German map of the La Boisselle area showing the different craters and their designations. I know this is a bit off the original subject but I thought you might like to know. One other small point mentioned in the German sources was that the soil around La Boisselle had been subjected to so many shells and mine explosions that it became soft and lacked any compactness, it was like walking on fine sand. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 16 December , 2002 Share Posted 16 December , 2002 Nothing to do with mining operations but with regard to Ralph's last remark about the soil around La Boisselle becoming like fine sand as a result of shelling, I've read exactly the same thing about Verdun, where it was sometimes described as being like shifting sand dunes. Christina Holstein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 17 December , 2002 Author Share Posted 17 December , 2002 Cheers for the additional info Ralph. Seems to be a bit of a confusing issue this one. I can only surmise that all the effort and manpower required to prepare and fire these mines would be recorded,somewhere,but as they say, there's no smoke without fire? Regards, Chris N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 December , 2002 Share Posted 17 December , 2002 It occurred to me last night that these could be a reference to "Russian Saps"; tunnels with the roof blown off creating an instant Communication trench, MG or TM position. These were used quite a lot on 1st July on various parts of the front (inc. at La Boisselle), but the size of charge mentioned may be a bit 'heavy' for this. Interesting comment from Ralph about the nature of the ground at La Boisselle; someone should have told this to one of the locals, as a house is about to be built on the Y Sap crater - maybe it won't be there for very long??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 17 December , 2002 Share Posted 17 December , 2002 I went through the German records one more time just to be sure that no other mines were mentioned. I could only find a reference to the two main charges. It was interesting to see however that while the mine site near La Boisselle had been detected before the attack and the position evacuated beforehand the mine at Schwabenhöhe was a surprise and a large part of the 5/110th Reserve were buried in the explosion, presumably still entombed in their dugouts. On a side note, has anyone ever heard of a professional archeological dig on the Somme? I know of the diggers in Belgium and another group also in Belgium. I recall reading a short article regarding a 1914 French grave site being excavated but nothing for the Somme. Anything out there? Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 December , 2002 Share Posted 17 December , 2002 There was some minor work to remove bodies when the A29 motorway extension was built between St Quentin and Amiens, but nothing on the scale of the Diggers or the Arras Archaeologoical group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 2 March , 2005 Share Posted 2 March , 2005 It occurred to me last night that these could be a reference to "Russian Saps"; tunnels with the roof blown off creating an instant Communication trench, MG or TM position. These were used quite a lot on 1st July on various parts of the front (inc. at La Boisselle), but the size of charge mentioned may be a bit 'heavy' for this. Paul, Wouldn't this be impractical with the amount of loose soil that would result from the blast? It would seem that the dirt would fall back into the new trench, possibly up to a couple feet deep... it would raise the floor of the trench, and the heads of those walking through, it would also be unsturdy and not able to carry heavy loads. It just doesn't seem like it would work. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 2 March , 2005 Share Posted 2 March , 2005 I don't quite understand your point Andy? This device was used commonly. The charge in it was placed to blow the soil out and away from the 'trench' - it didn't come back down into it. Some specialist units - the Australian Mining & Boring Company for example - developed a system where 'push pipe' mines would be pushed underneath NML and blown to creat an instant trench. It might be shallow, but would offer some protection. In most cases pioneers were on hand to immediately deepen it as well. From some recent research I have been doing it seems many senior commanders after 1st July complained Russian Saps hadn't been used enough; they felt they would have shortened the distance across NML and thus have given the men a greater chance to reach the German positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 2 March , 2005 Share Posted 2 March , 2005 This device was used commonly. The charge in it was placed to blow the soil out and away from the 'trench' - it didn't come back down into it. Thanks Paul, I had a hard time picturing how this could work, and you last post explains it a bit. I would agree if the dirt could be blown out it would be much faster and easier to build a trench system. Are there pictures or diagrams to explain how this would happen? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 13 January , 2006 Share Posted 13 January , 2006 I have put my research notes on the web for mining at La Boisselle. See link below. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 14 January , 2006 Share Posted 14 January , 2006 This is an extract from the report by the OC 179 Tunnelling Company to 34 Division following 1/7/1916 which describes the two small mines blown at the Glory Hole at La Boisselle. Unlike the Russian Sap charges, these mines were blown to destroy the German system. 8000 lbs is not insignificant and I hope to match these blows with craters surviving in the Glory Hole. Russians Saps along the British front were opened up with small charges in the region of 500 lbs, most successfully on the southern part. Regards Simon "[Designation of working: No 2; trench name: Inch St; map ref: H.16 (X.19.b.8.2.) The above references refer to the entrance to the mine system; Depth 80’; nature of ground: hard chalk; Report: A charge of 8000 lbs ammonal was laid in a chamber at a point X.20.a.½.7½, the enemy being known to have an attack gallery close to this point. The charge was tamped solid 180’ outside the chamber. The charge was fired at -2 minutes on Z day and was intended to destroy his attack gallery at this point. Subsequent examination has proved that it did so. [Designation of working: No 5 right; trench name: Inch St; map ref: H.16 X.19.b.8½.8.; Depth 109’; nature of ground: Blown chalk; Report:] The enemy was known to be very close at this point, as he could be heard moving and talking with the naked ear. A charge of 8000 lbs Ammonal was laid, and tamped for a total distance of 160 feet. The object of the mine was to destroy his mine system at the point and to gas his workings. His loss in personel [sic] cannot be estimated, as his trenches at this point were not carried until he had time to remove any dead from his workings. His attack gallery was absolutely closed to within a few feet of his transversal, and blood etc at this point show that he suffered loss in life. The mine, like others, was fired at -2 minutes on Z day." (From 34 Div GS War Diary) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now