CWGC cemeteries

[gem22]

This question may have been asked before but I have not seen it. It's probably another one for Terry Denham; sorry Terry, but what I would like to know is, "What criteria are used to decide whether or not a cemetery has a register and a visitors book"?

Garth

[Terry Denham]

Trying to be clever!!!! The answer to the first part of the question is - They all have a Register.

However, I suspect your question is actually 'What are the criteria for placing a Register and Visitors' Book on site at the cemetery or memorial?'.

I believe that there is no hard and fast rule these days and the decisions are probably made by the local area office. The factors they would take into consideration are (1) Somewhere to place the register (2) The number of visitors and (3) The level of theft and vandalism. However, the aim is to have a register available for each site and always has been.

Some of the small cemeteries do not have a Register Box and so cannot accomodate a register. Often the register will be placed in another nearby cemetery which does have a box. Sometimes a register is kept at a nearby building.

I seem to remember that the original aim was to have a register at each location but times have changed. What is the point of spending money (even the cost of a computer produced version) when they are going to be continually stolen or damaged by mindless morons (some of whom seem to believe they have a right to rip out or write upon a particular page!).

The same sort of considerations will apply to the Visitors' Book. In locations where the book is always being stolen or vandalised, the will to keep replacing it must weaken after a time.

This will be galling for the majority of decent visitors but it is a sign of the times.

[MartinWills]

Visitors to Gallipoli may want to be aware that none of the cemeteries (large or small) host either a visitors book or a register. Information is available from the CWGC Office in Canakkale.

I am only aware of one visitors book, which is that for the Consular Cemetery in Canakkale and which is held at the CWGC Office. You get to sign it when requesting the keyys for the Consular Cemetery which is some ten minutes away from the Office.

Martin

[gem22]

Terry

See, I was right, I knew you'd be the man.

I did mean having visitors books and registers actually in the cemetery. I like to see them so that I can use the visitors book as a way of paying my respects.

It bothers me, too, that people vandalise cemeteries. On my last trip I went to Meerut Military and you have to get a key from the Mairie. Not easy when your knowledge of French is as bad as mine. Even then I felt obliged to remove a football that had been kicked over the (very high) wall.

I also noticed evidence of vandalism at Adinkerke churchyard cemetery and that is primarily Belgian.

When I went to White House cemetery I found myself wondering if the fallen headstone was due to vandalism or weather. What a terrible state of affairs when we question things like that.

The other piece of 'vandalism' that is beginning to annoy me more is the habit of some to applaud the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate. I find that very disrespectful, but what can one say, and anyway maybe it's just me getting old.

Garth

[Hedley Malloch]

In one very popular German cemetery I visited this year I found the Register chained to the box. Something for the CWGC to copy?

I visit more CWGC cemeteries than most. It is my impression that there was a serious problem of register theft about two or three years ago. I remember one walk around Ploegsteert when I couldn't find a single register in any of the cemeteries I visited; someone had clearly gone round and hoovered them all up.

But this year it does not seem too bad. I can only recall of the two French and Belgian CWGC cemeteries I have seen this year as missing a register. Is this other people's experience? Or have I just been lucky?

French cemeteries are experiencing a new form of vandalism: the removal of metal name plates from crosses. A simple Phillips type screw driver and the thief is in business. At one large cemetery I visited about one in ten of the nameplates seem to have gone.

[gem22]

Hedley

On my last trip only 1 cemetery was missing a register from the box. But this was my fourth trip this year and I've noticed at least one missing or vandalised book each trip.

I'm not convinced that things are improving.

Garth

[paul guthrie]

Hedley can the French headstones with missing name plate be from graves where bodies were taken home later? I think so and cannot remember why though.

[Hedley Malloch]

Paul: that could be the explanation. But then why leave the cross standing? And why do you seem to find it concentrated in some cemeteries and not in others? The Faubourg in Verdun was particularly bad last year.

On the other hand many plates have been renewed; it could be part of a renovation programme.

I seem to remember an interview with the head of French equivalent of the CWGC in 14-18 last year and he commented on this new form of vandalism.

Can any of our French correspondents comment?

[CROONAERT]

Hedley.

It's not necessarily vandalism in the French cemeteries. More like routine maintainance. Nameplates get worn/damaged etc. and so the Ministere des Anciens Combattants et Victimes de Guerre routinely replace them on a "one for one" basis. Sometimes further information is found and so the plate has to be changed. I once found several discarded nameplates behind "le Trottoir" cemetery at Les Eparges. All these names were also on the crosses.They'd simply been replaced. However, saying that, I have come across one or two at militaria fairs. Impossible to say whether they were discarded plates that have been picked up, or whether they'd been stolen.

Paul.

If a body has been moved from a French cemetery, for whatever reason, then the headstone is also removed, probably leaving gaps in the rows. (similar to in CWGC cemeteries). It is extremely rare that this happens these days, and, seeing as in most French cemeteries headstones are no older than 20 or 30 years old (10 to 15 years is probably more realistic - hence their attempted replacement with "plasticy", more long lasting crosses), there'd be no reason for a "blank" headstone.

Dave.

[Geoff Parker]

Garth

I visited Adinkerke Churchyard Cemetery myself two weeks ago and I saw

the damage I think youre referring to. Some of the plagues had come away

from the headstones and a marble plaque that someone had laid by a headstone was broken. How much of this is actual vandalism as opposed to wear and tear, I'm not sure. I dont know if you saw a previous thread of mine about the small oval shape enamal photograph by one of the British Headstones at the back which had about one quarter broken off and no longer in situ.

Certainly when I visited some had started a fire in the wooden hut by the gate which had destroyed the plan of the cemetery on the wall and they had also scribbled in the register and visitors books.

Geoff

[gem22]

Geoff

I was thinking, in particular, of the fire and the damage to the book. I can understand that with the style of metal badge the Belgians use you will get wear and tear. However, the fire looks like simple, mindless vandalism. I saw something similar in Rouen a while back. The registers had been piled up and set fire to. There can be no excuse for this kind of behaviour.

Garth

[paul guthrie]

Dave the first time I was at the front I was near Albert where the Aerospatiale plant is, across the road is a large French Cemetery, have not been back. My guess is most are 1914 dead. I did not know my ass from a hole in the ground at the time. There were lots of new French headstones there and since there was rail or road construction I thought they had uncovered lots of new bodies but they were just replacing old ones.

[Paul Reed]

I am only aware of one visitors book, which is that for the Consular Cemetery in Canakkale and which is held at the CWGC Office.

There is also a visitors book at the CWGC base camp on ANZAC, which all visitors are free to sign, although few know it is there.

[Paul Reed]

In one very popular German cemetery I visited this year I found the Register chained to the box. Something for the CWGC to copy?

Both the register and visitors books (the old style, bound ones) were chained in ALL CWGC cemeteries up to around the 70s. The registers were in thick brown folders bearing the IWGC logo, with a large brass loop in one corner, and the visitors books in green, bound with IWGC or CWGC logo depending on when they were printed.

Even in the late 70s and early 80s several cemeteries on the Somme still had them chained in like this, and many visitors books went back to before WW2, something modern pilgrims will find difficult to believe.

[Guest Andy Kellett]

I note that the Waggon Road Cemetery visitors book goes back to 1975 and has many names familar to anyone who looks at this forum, Martin Middlebrook, Paul Reed etc. It is nearly full up now and will, unfortunately, no doubt be replaced by a modern clip folder version within a month or two.

[Paul Reed]

That visitors book was orignally in Frankfurt Trench British Cemetery - how it ended up in Waggon Road, I don't know!

It must be the only original style visitors book left in a cemetery on the WF - I understand when they are full, all the Somme ones go to the Historial at Peronne; so it should be preserved.

[Cliff. Hobson]

When visiting the Cemeteries one is well aware of the magnificent job the C.W.G.C. do in maintaining them, but on visiting Resevoir Cemetery, Ypres last week to photograph a grave of a local man (bottom left hand corner), the name and of those around were barely distinguishable.

[Steve Bramley]

I visited the Western front for the first time this year and noticed at the Newfoundland Park, that the visitors book at Hawthorn Ridge No 2 was missing, but with an explanation inside the box about theft.

The thing that really annoyed my wife (who only has a passing interest) was the man who had climbed up and placed his young son on the back of the Caribou!!