Capital Crimes in the Royal Navy

[PhilB]

I don`t think there were any executions of men from the RFC or RAF in WW1. Were there any in the RN? If not, or if it was a low figure, it highlights the difference in the exigencies of the different services. Phil B

[Jonathan Saunders]

As I think is evident from another thread, there was one RND officer - Sub-Lt Dyett - SAD (although this was done without the knowledge of The Admiralty).

There were about half a dozen other RNVR (RND) ORs tried and I believe there were 4 Royal Marines (RND) - all ORs - all of whom were found guilty of what we regard to be the serious crimes ... desertion, cowardice etc ... but none of these men were executed. (I am not sure of the dates of their crimes but presume they were after Dyett and I would imagine due to the furore that followed the tactlessness with how the WO dealt with The Admiralty in the Dyett case, ensured none of these men would face a firing squad). In most instances I think those accused went on to serve their respective battalions with distinction.

With regard to sea-going RN and RM I am unaware of any instances where a man was executed but would happily acknowledge I am wrong, if someone else has more informed information.

I hope this helps.

[historydavid]

I don't have any evidence to add to what Jonathon has stated about RN crimes, but wish to make the following points that may help to explain the differencies between the services.

There was at least one major difference between the experience of those in action with the Army and the other services, ie in the RFC, RAF and RN the action was limited to a particular incident or patrol, whereas for the Army people it went on 24 hours a day until they were withdrawn from the line.

The RFC, RAF and RN crews generally fought in life or death confrontations which may have lasted seconds or a few hours, then it was back to base and a chance to unwind before the next patol.

The soldiers in an attack would have been involved for some time, under superior enemy fire from machine-guns or artillery. Even after an attack was called off, whether successful or not, they continued to be harrassed by the enemy via shelling, sniping or counter-attack.

The Army was manpower intensive with relatively little in the way of mechanical aids so each man was psychologically alone and exposed (albeit surrounded by lots of others) and subject to his fears of what may happen or of what had happened to others around him.

In the other services the men were fully occupied by their duties in manning the mechanical weapon they were flying or sailing in. This didn't leave time for them to think of the dangers they faced.

It is not surprising, therefore, to find that many of the soldiers cracked under the strain, either in the heat of battle or in a quieter spell afterwards.

Whilst writing this I have begun to wonder whether the Army had a better experience with tank crews.

Best wishes

David

[PhilB]

There were 2 MGC men SAD but no Tank men. Your analogy may be apt! Phil B

[michaeldr]

Phil,

Backing-up JS in respect of the RND

Kyle Tallett did some research on this and published his work in Len Sellers’ magazine ‘RND’ issue No.12, March 2000, pages 1099-1113

It is also available on Mr Talletts website here http://www.royalnavaldivision.co.uk/deaths.htm

regards

michael D.R.

[PhilB]

Thanks. I can`t quite see where the Bedfords men fit in? I take it he was only looking at RND men, not seagoing RN men.

Interesting that you got your medals if you were reprieved from a death sentence. Phil B

[CROONAERT]

There were 2 MGC men SAD but no Tank men. Your analogy may be apt! Phil B

Phil.

There were actually 3 executions from the MGC (out of 55 who were sentenced to death)

Dave.

[historydavid]

Excuse my ignorence of army matters but could someone explain what MGC stands?

Best wishes

David

[Terry Denham]

MGC = Machine Gun Corps

[PhilB]

Phil.

There were actually 3 executions from the MGC (out of 55 who were sentenced to death)

Dave.

I assumed 2 because I can only see 2 in the list in Shot at Dawn. Murphy and Stedman. Where is the other one hiding out, Dave? Phil B

[historydavid]

Thanks for that Terry.

Best wishes

David

[per ardua per mare per terram]

In the Russian Field Force RM, 1919: 90 men were found guilty by court martial (for refusing duty), 13 sentanced to death; the sentances were not confirmed.

[Jonathan Saunders]

In the Russian Field Force RM, 1919: 90 men were found guilty by court martial (for refusing duty), 13 sentanced to death; the sentances were not confirmed.

Good call! I'd forgotten about that.

[historydavid]

I don't think that the men that Tallett refers to need be considered here, because, in spite of being memberes of the RN, they were involved in army type service, ie required to fight on land.

I believe the same can be said of the 90 Russians.

Best wishes

David

[per ardua per mare per terram]

David

Surely they are very relevant here. As they were enduring the same pressures, did they get treated in a similar way when committing capital crimes? It enables a direct comparison to be made, which would be illuminating.

The same with the Russian Field Force of Royal Marines, some of whom were 1914 Star veterans; why does them being ashore exclude them for consideration?

[per ardua per mare per terram]

What you left out from your consideration was that there were navy patrols away at sea for years, often in wet ships, certainly in all weathers, with constant fear of mines and torpedo attacks. There were a huge variety of operations from the unremitting tedium of Scapa Flow, to the shore bombardments at Gallipoli (where the ships went so close they were hitting with 12 pounder guns) through to the 1st Atlantic War against submarines.

If the ship went down there may be a handful of survivors or none. I know of no battalion that suffered a loss equivalent to the Queen Mary at Jutland or Good Hope at Coronel. Added to that is the psychological impact: Queen Mary was one of the newest, supposedly best ships afloat, if she wasn’t safe, what ship was? The pressures were different, but affected men enough to run from their ships (when in harbour), there weren’t many places to run at sea!

[chrisharley9]

I dont know if this is relevant, but the situation today with the Marines is that whilst serving ashore they are subject to the Army Act & whilst on ship the Naval Discipline Act

All The Best

Chris