grantsmil Posted 5 April , 2006 Share Posted 5 April , 2006 Gentlemen, I have been told that the various countries of the First World War used different methods of scoring the projectile to attach the driving bands of their artillery shells. I was informed that the methods were so distinct that one could tell, by the pattern left in a piece of shrapnel, which country made the projectile. I have a letter opener, made of a metal shard, and the pattern left in the metal from the where the driving band is attached is plainly visible. Is there anyone who can assist me in determining which country may have been responsible for making the projectile that produced the shrapnel from which this letter opener was made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 5 April , 2006 Share Posted 5 April , 2006 Hello, I suspect that the number of and position of driving bands on shells was decided by the armament manufacturer and had their origins before the war. And, just a small point, shrapnel refers to the balls in cannister shot. The number and size of balls depending on the size of the shell. I doubt they have any marking. Shell fragments might well show the grooves for driving bands, but that is back to squre one. I believe no national differences. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 5 April , 2006 Share Posted 5 April , 2006 Contemporary reports I have read indicate that the Stokes mortar shells were notorious for producing long, deadly shards from the casing. In addition, a large number of paper knives made from shell fragments have a maltese cross like the one you have, which further enforces my view that these paper knives were usually made by German troops, who would have been the recipients of Stokes mortar fragments ! As Tom said, the pattern underneath the drive band on these shells may be individual to a manufacturer, but I'll bet you could never come up with a definitive key to identify them (there are no manufacturers marks on the projectile, so you would be reliant on the brass casing, which did not necessarily start off life with that projectile, and was probably made by a different factory anyway!!). Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 6 April , 2006 Share Posted 6 April , 2006 The section of shell casing upon which the band is sweated is distinctive between shells as well as combatant nations to some degree. Some used a series of lateral lines, some a pattern of cross hatching as above. I am not sure who used what - there are many variations. Incidentally the shell case (ie projectile) is marked in most cases, British 18 pounders shells are full of information, some is stencilled when filled but much is stamped manufacturer names, acceptance marks, dates etc. Having said that to find a piece of shell shard with markings in this way must be extremely rare. Below is a portion of an 18 pdr shell - a shrapnel shell which is not designed to fragment anyway but HE shells are marked too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 6 April , 2006 Share Posted 6 April , 2006 Grant I have seen the chequer under the driving band on French 75mm rounds. British shell has wavy lines in the body under the band. Can't speak for German - must make a note next time I see a German round with stripped driving band! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 31 March , 2020 Share Posted 31 March , 2020 Hello, this is a really old thread and I apologize for reviving it, however it turned up in my online searches. I found a metal cilinder filled with concrete used as a tool (to hammer heavy things) in the house I bought. I didn't think any of it until I noticed the recessed zone at the foot. This reminded me of the copper driving bands I have seen on fired shells. Especially the comment of MIke_H "British shell has wavy lines in the body under the band." makes me think this might be a reused shell. Diameter is about 12.5 cm. I couldn't find any other markings as it has weathered quite a lot. My location is West-Flanders. https://imgshare.io/image/img-20200328-164044.gsbq9 https://imgshare.io/image/img-20200328-164035-copy.gsR9P Does anyone have a clue what this might have been? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthStaffsPOW Posted 31 March , 2020 Share Posted 31 March , 2020 I concur with Mike's suggestion that is could be from a French 75mm shell based on the chequered pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthStaffsPOW Posted 31 March , 2020 Share Posted 31 March , 2020 Brecht, that is a re-purposed artillery shell.looks British to me based on the wavy lines but that's not an exact science I guess. Could be an 18pdr or a 13pdr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 31 March , 2020 Share Posted 31 March , 2020 3 minutes ago, NorthStaffsPOW said: Brecht, that is a re-purposed artillery shell.looks British to me based on the wavy lines but that's not an exact science I guess. Could be an 18pdr or a 13pdr. No, it's a 60 pounder shrapnell shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthStaffsPOW Posted 31 March , 2020 Share Posted 31 March , 2020 49 minutes ago, AOK4 said: No, it's a 60 pounder shrapnell shell. Very good. Yes. I should have checked the size before replying. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 31 March , 2020 Share Posted 31 March , 2020 27 minutes ago, NorthStaffsPOW said: Very good. Yes. I should have checked the size before replying. Cheers. I also know because these things were quite popular in Flanders, my grandfather had a similar "tool". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 31 March , 2020 Share Posted 31 March , 2020 1 hour ago, AOK4 said: No, it's a 60 pounder shrapnell shell. +1 on that. The retaining wave pattern was specified on the engineering drawings and AFAIK could not be varied to suit individual manufacturers except by formal concession. Breakage or release of the driving band in any part of the firing up to the end of trajectory was a seriously dangerous occurrence. You can see the specially-tooled turning process to cut the waves from about 25:20 in this video:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 April , 2020 Share Posted 1 April , 2020 thanks a lot everyone. This all adds up perfectly. The wavy lines are indeed clearly drawn on this diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_60-pounder_gun#/media/File:BL_60_pdr_Shrapnel_Shell_Mk_I_Diagram.jpg I haven't seen a tool like this before but as the empty shells must have been all over the place in West-Flanders it's no wonder a lot were repurposed like this: its very cheap and easy and the result is very durable. I suppose it has been moved to where I live now (Courtrai/Kortrijk) as I don't think much shelling happened around this area and the house is only 30 years old anyway. I'm happy to have this piece of history around and I have actually made it to good use already. Thanks for all the information. Brecht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durhamdave Posted 1 April , 2020 Share Posted 1 April , 2020 (edited) amazing video of shell manufacture the amount of machine time in the conflict must have been enormous all that work and a 20+% duds. reguards Dave Edited 1 April , 2020 by durhamdave misspelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 2 April , 2020 Share Posted 2 April , 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assafx Posted 3 April , 2020 Share Posted 3 April , 2020 19 hours ago, 303man said: Amazing, they thought about everything back then. could you please reffer me to the publication? Thank you Assaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 4 April , 2020 Share Posted 4 April , 2020 Google Treatise on Ammunition 1915 it is out there on PDF. I can not upload it as the file size is to big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assafx Posted 4 April , 2020 Share Posted 4 April , 2020 Thank you, i was able to find it online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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