Paul Byrne Posted 29 March , 2006 Share Posted 29 March , 2006 Does anybody know whether a regimental history of the LKR No.1 was published after the war? Am interested in its participation at the Battle of Le Cateau. Any help most welcome. Thanks Paul Byrne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 29 March , 2006 Share Posted 29 March , 2006 Hi You can try The German Cavalry 1914 in Belgium & France By M. Von Poseck published in 1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 29 March , 2006 Share Posted 29 March , 2006 Von Poseck's book has very little about the German cavalry and le Cateau. It mentions that General von der Marwitz advanced to the La Selle area, with the 2nd Cavalry Division towards le Cateau, 4th Cavalry Division towards Solesmes and the 9th Cavalry Division towards Haspres. The cavalry came up against the left flank of the BEF's II Corps. I am not aware of a Leib Kurassier Regiment attached to HKK 2. There were two Leib Husaren regiments, Nr 1 und 2. There are some anecdotal accounts from the former in von Poseck's book but not relating to le Cateau. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 29 March , 2006 Share Posted 29 March , 2006 Paul Robert is quite correct. The LKR was from 11th Cav Brigade, 5th Cav Division and part of HKK 1 operating with 3rd Army. If you want the Le Cateau ORBAT I can supply it. There is a history of the LKR, published in 1934, but if your primary interest is Le Cateau, that will not help you much. Get back to me if you would like more information. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 30 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2006 Dear Jack/Robert, Thanks for that. My interest was aroused by a recent visit to the cemetery at Le Cateau. A German memorial in there commemorates the death on 27 August, 1914 of six or so members of the LK1 and I assumed that they had been engaged at Le Cateau. I did find confirmation of Robert's point on the maps in the British OH and was trying to tie up the discrepancy i.e. how they got there. Would like to take advantage of your offer of the ORBAT and any other light you can shed. Hope you both get this. Best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 30 March , 2006 Share Posted 30 March , 2006 At le Cateau, the independent German HKK 2 comprised: 2nd Cavalry Division - 5th Cavalry Brigade (2 Dragoon Rgt, 3 Uhlan Rgt); 8th Cavalry Brigade (7 Kurassier Rgt, 12 Hussar Rgt); Leib Hussar Brigade (Leib Hussar Rgts 1 & 2) 4th Cavalry Division - 3rd Cavalry Brigade (2 Kurassier Rgt, 9 Uhlan Rgt); 17th Cavalry Brigade (17 & 18 Dragoon Rgts); 18th Cavalry Brigade (15 & 16 Hussar Rgts) 9th Cavalry Division - 13th Cavalry Brigade (4 Kurassier Rgt, 8 Hussar Rgt); 14th Cavalry Brigade (11 Hussar Rgt, 5 Uhlan Rgt); 19th Cavalry Brigade (19 Dragoon Rgt, 13 Uhlan Rgt) I have not included the artillery, wireless sections, etc. A double-check of the divisional cavalry for First and Second Armies gives no clue as to why these men should have been in the vicinity of le Cateau when they were killed. There were no detachments from the Leib Kurassiers listed in the ORBATs for the infantry divisions of these armies. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 30 March , 2006 Share Posted 30 March , 2006 A German memorial in there commemorates the death on 27 August, 1914 of six or so members of the LK1 and I assumed that they had been engaged at Le Cateau. Paul, the date of death is the key here. The German 5th Cavalry Division was tracking down to the right of the German First Army. On 26th August they were engaged by French Hussars. The Kurassiers 5th Squadron, led by Major von Giese, were the advance guard for the division. They charged a squadron of the French 10th Hussars. Eight German cavalrymen were killed, 17 wounded; compared with more than 60 (estimated) French casualties. The battle took place at Zorées, which is about 15 miles due east of le Cateau. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 30 March , 2006 Share Posted 30 March , 2006 Paul, the regimental history for the 10th Hussars also records this incident. Two squadrons of Hussars made contact with German Uhlans. They captured a trooper and some horses. From the intelligence gleaned, it was clear there was a German cavalry division bearing down on them via Avesnes. Colonel de Rascas left one squadron as rear guard and took the rest of the regiment back to Cantraine via Zorées. At 10 am they made contact with the Germans at Cantraine. Two squadrons of Hussars engaged the two Kurassier squadrons, which appeared to be the advance guard. The Hussars then came under machine gun and rifle fire from German infantry. This was said to have been the 88th German Infantry Regiment (88e R. I. allemand) but I don't believe this can be correct. Another squadron of Hussars was then commited to guard the flank of the first two. The Hussars held out for over 14 hours, protecting the crossings of the Helpe. Their losses were recorded as forty killed, and as many horses. Several of the wounded horses had sabre wounds to the head and neck. This regimental history records that "L'engagement d'Etroeungt fait le plus grand honneur au 10e Hussards". Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 31 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 31 March , 2006 Paul, the date of death is the key here. The German 5th Cavalry Division was tracking down to the right of the German First Army. On 26th August they were engaged by French Hussars. The Kurassiers 5th Squadron, led by Major von Giese, were the advance guard for the division. They charged a squadron of the French 10th Hussars. Eight German cavalrymen were killed, 17 wounded; compared with more than 60 (estimated) French casualties. The battle took place at Zorées, which is about 15 miles due east of le Cateau. Robert Robert, That's fantastic and thank you very much but how do you know all this? I'm intrigued how an individual can come up with so much information about what is basically a small episode in a long war. Do you know the actual composition of 1 LK ? Number of squadrons, structure, commanders and officers etc? I appear to have stumbled upon the eight German cavalrymen you refer to. Their officer was Leutnant von Racsezk although he is not buried in the cemetery. Two other ranks are though, the remainder are commemorated. The maps that accompany the British OH detailing Le Cateau show the 5 Cavalry Division well to the east of Le Cateau and Nouvion en Thierache on the day of the battle and that ties in nicely with Zorees. The name Major von Giese sticks in my memory from somewhere but I cannot recall the book/incident involved. How about you? Finally, please forgive my ignorance but does German HKK 2 refer to the German Second Cavalry Corps and if my assumption is correct do you know how LK1 fit into the German ORBAT? Apologies for all this but I would like to explore this incident as fully as I can. Feel sure you'll understand Best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 Paul To the best of my knowledge the LKR was organised the same as all other cavalry regiments of the active army. According to Cron Imperial German Army 1914-18, the establishment of a regiment with four sabre squadrons comprised 36 offr, 688 NCO and OR, 709 riding horses, 60 draft horses, 2 bridge wagons, 1 telephone wagon, 1 medical wagon, 5 bagage wagons, 5 supply wagons and 5 fodder wagons. As has been mentioned the HKKs (usually translated Senior Cavalry Commander) were responsible primarily for operational-level recce, with close tactical reconnaisance being the business of the cavalry regiments organic to the corps. They were usually split, with half going to each of the two infantry divisions of the corps. At Le Cateau there was involvement from the German 3rd Hussars (III Corps) on the flank of the action and the 10th Hussars (IV Corps). Most of HKK 2 regiments were not engaged, or were operating on the flanks and those that were tended to be fighting in the dismounted role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 For some reason that reply posted itself! From HKK 2 I have extracts of the histories of: 2nd Division 7th Cuirassiers, 12th Hussars, Leib Hussars. 4th Division 2nd Cuirassiers, 17th & 18th Dragoons, 15th Hussars 9th Division 4th Cuirassiers, 8th Hussars, 5th Uhlans, 19th Dragoons and 13th Uhlans. I also have material from most of the Jaeger battalions involved, some of the artilery, pretty well all of the infantry regiments as well as 3rd and 10th Hussars. However in total it does not amount to a great deal. Le Cateau was just a stop along the way for the advancing German armies at the time and I do not know of a full German account. Nevertheless if there are specifics about which you wish to know more, I shall see what i can do to fill in the gaps. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 31 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 31 March , 2006 For some reason that reply posted itself! From HKK 2 I have extracts of the histories of: 2nd Division 7th Cuirassiers, 12th Hussars, Leib Hussars. 4th Division 2nd Cuirassiers, 17th & 18th Dragoons, 15th Hussars 9th Division 4th Cuirassiers, 8th Hussars, 5th Uhlans, 19th Dragoons and 13th Uhlans. I also have material from most of the Jaeger battalions involved, some of the artilery, pretty well all of the infantry regiments as well as 3rd and 10th Hussars. However in total it does not amount to a great deal. Le Cateau was just a stop along the way for the advancing German armies at the time and I do not know of a full German account. Nevertheless if there are specifics about which you wish to know more, I shall see what i can do to fill in the gaps. Jack Jack, Many thanks for the time, trouble and information. I'm still puzzled. Which HKK was LK1 attached or operating with on 26 August? Do you happen to know? i would very much like to take advantage of your kind offer in relation to German infantry regiments at Le Cateau and will be back to you asap. Best, paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 Paul The Leib Cuirassiers were part of 11th Cav Brigade, 5th Cav Division, which was one of divisions of HKK 1. The other was the Guards Cav Division. HKK 1 advanced initially in front of Third Army in the same role as HKK 2 carried out for First and Second Armies. On 25 Aug, HKK 1 was actually in front of Second Army advancing on Maubeuge from the north east. The role of HKK 2 on 26 Aug was to attempt to outflank the British line by a move in a wide arc around Cambrai. Of course this did not work. HKK 1 adavanced on Landrecies that day, where it was involved in a short sharp action, but by that it evening its two divisions were exhausted and had to stop for rest. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 I'm intrigued how an individual can come up with so much information about what is basically a small episode in a long war. Paul, you need to pursue the sources in other languages. The more you delve, the more you discover is out there. Remember that some the 'major' actions that are celebrated in the English literature look like 'small episodes' to our Continental neighbours. Apologies for all this but I would like to explore this incident as fully as I can. Feel sure you'll understand No problem. Your question has focused my attention too. I will try and complete the translations, French and German, for you. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 3 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2006 Paul, you need to pursue the sources in other languages. The more you delve, the more you discover is out there. Remember that some the 'major' actions that are celebrated in the English literature look like 'small episodes' to our Continental neighbours. No problem. Your question has focused my attention too. I will try and complete the translations, French and German, for you. Robert Robert, Thanks for your kind offer to translate. I can't wait! Will you let me know the histories you are consulting please? I'm assuming the 10 French Hussars formed part of the French 5th Army under Lanrezac? The memorial at Le Cateau is to the eight cavalrymen you mentioned on 30 March. They were Leutnant von Raczeck, Sgt Max Heimann, Gefreite Josef Meissner and Paul Hauke and Kurassiere Josef Lempa, Karl Baumann, Anton Schelenz and Bernhard Bittner. The memorial carries the inscription ' ZUM ARDENKEN AN DIE HIER RUHENDEN TAPFEREN KAMERADEN VOM LEIB KURASSIER REGIMENT GROSSER KURFURST (SCHLESISCHES) NR 1. Gefallen am 26/8/14' I still do not understand why the LK1 were operating on the front of Second Army on that date when they formed part of the German Third Army. Best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 3 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2006 Paul The Leib Cuirassiers were part of 11th Cav Brigade, 5th Cav Division, which was one of divisions of HKK 1. The other was the Guards Cav Division. HKK 1 advanced initially in front of Third Army in the same role as HKK 2 carried out for First and Second Armies. On 25 Aug, HKK 1 was actually in front of Second Army advancing on Maubeuge from the north east. The role of HKK 2 on 26 Aug was to attempt to outflank the British line by a move in a wide arc around Cambrai. Of course this did not work. HKK 1 adavanced on Landrecies that day, where it was involved in a short sharp action, but by that it evening its two divisions were exhausted and had to stop for rest. Jack Thanks for that Jack. Still don't understand why they were operating in front of German Second Army on 26 August though. Can you let me have the sources for the information you have providedplease? Best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 3 April , 2006 Share Posted 3 April , 2006 Paul Do not forget that by the end of August the campaign had been running for some time. I said that HKK1 began the war associated with Third Army, but high commands are free to regroup their forces as they see fit. With HKK 2 fully occupied operating in front of First Army, it was a natural move to switch HKK 1 - after all at the time both these armies formed the Schwerpunkt of operations on the Western Front. Do not get confused by the fact that the memorial you saw is at Le Cateau. That cemetery was originally laid out after the 1914 battle, but most of the burials are from 1918 and a lot more were concentrated there from cemeteries elsewhere. According to the Volksbund, the French concentrated burials from 53 communes here between 1921 and 1923, including 1,000 from Maubeuge. The Germans were not allowed to leave memorials around the countryside or at the site of former temporary cemeteries, so in 1930 the Volksbund restored nearby memorials which could be repaired and moved them here. This type of action is seen in many of the German cemeteries. I suspect that the LKR memorial was one such. The source for the information I gave you was Volume 1 of the German Official History Die Grenzschlachten im Westen pp 505 - 532 + map. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 3 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2006 Jack Thanks again. Clears up a couple of points. Best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 3 April , 2006 Share Posted 3 April , 2006 Paul, the order that transferred HKK 1 from 3rd Army to 2nd Army was issued by von Moltke on 20th August, 1914. The source is 'Mein Bericht zur Marneschlacht' by General von Bülow (GOC 2nd Army). Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 11 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2006 Paul, you need to pursue the sources in other languages. The more you delve, the more you discover is out there. Remember that some the 'major' actions that are celebrated in the English literature look like 'small episodes' to our Continental neighbours. No problem. Your question has focused my attention too. I will try and complete the translations, French and German, for you. Robert Hi Robert, Don't want to pester you but .........................! How are the translations coming along? Apologies, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 11 April , 2006 Share Posted 11 April , 2006 French translation finished. German still underway. Work has been very busy lately but hopefully Easter should see the job through. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 14 May , 2006 Share Posted 14 May , 2006 From von Poseck's 'The German Cavalry in Belgium and France 1914': 'Engagement at Zorées. The 5th Cavalry Division met a strong force of enemy cavalry at Zorées. The advance squadron of the Leib Cuirassier regiment, Captain von Ploetz, was able, as the result of a successful attack, to drive back a squadron of enemy Hussars. "A deeply cut road wound in and out among thick hedges. The Leib Cuirassier regiment, under Major von Giese, the 5th Squadron leading, acted as advance guard of the Division. 'A devil of a country', murmured the leader of the squadron, bent over his map. Suddenly, there was a loud yell and a rush of galloping horses around the corner. Red and blue uniforms and glittering sabres were visible through the cloud of dust. A squadron of the 10th French Hussars, the captain well in advance of his men, came on at full gallop. 'Charge' shouted Captain von Ploetz, and the two squadrons came together with a mighty crash. It was an unequal contest, the big Cuirassiers on their heavy horses and the little southern Frenchmen on their cat-like Arab mounts. The collision of the heavy Irish charger of Captain von Ploetz rolled over the little thoroughbred of the French captain. Even as he fell he gave his adversary a sabrecut in the face. Then followed a hand to hand encounter in the narrow roadway, the long German lances against the keen sabres of the Frenchmen. Then as if by magic, right and left of the road, fields and hedges were swarming with the red and blue of the French Hussars. A carbine fire was opened on the Germans. The main body of the regiment had dismounted to fight on foot. Struck in the mouth by a bullet, Lieutenant von Raczeck dropped from his saddle. But the dismounted men of the 1st and 4th Squadrons were already swarming out right and left of the road. All of the 5th Squadron who, on account of the narrowness of the road cannot use their sabres, draw their carbines. Artillery, machine guns and fresh squadrons keep coming up to reinforce the line and the struggle is soon decided. Whatever of the enemy cavalry is not lying dead or wounded seeks safety in flight, favoured by the broken nature of the surrounding country. Over 60 dead and wounded Frenchmen covered the battlefield. Twenty prisoners, 30 horses and the guidon of one of the squadrons remained in the hands of the Cuirassiers who on their side had 8 killed and 17 wounded." The 5th Cavalry Division remained overnight at Zorées'. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD60 Posted 14 May , 2006 Share Posted 14 May , 2006 There are two pages with a schema in the book of the Captain F.Gazin bout this fight in Zorees. (French point of view) The fight is described as a success of the french cavalery to cover the retreat of the 5th army. In this battle sixty german horses were captured. They hae to retreat not because of the german cavalery itself but because of guns fire and maxim's. One of the biggest attacks with swords of the campaign. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted 15 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2006 Dear Robert, I really cannot thank you enough for all the trouble you have taken on my behalf. Words are really inadequate. If you believe I could be of any help to you in the future please dont hesitate to get in touch. Thanks again, Best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 15 May , 2006 Share Posted 15 May , 2006 There are two pages with a schema in the book of the Captain F.Gazin bout this fight in Zorees. (French point of view)Thank you for this extra information. It fits with the report in the regimental diary of the 10e Hussards. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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