Gas used in Palestine?

[Guest ToddWiner]

Was poison gas used by the Turks or their allies during fighting with the British forces? Did the British use any sort of gas?

[gporta]

Todd,

You might find this related previous thread to be of interest.

Gloria

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mate

There are no recorded cases of poison gas being employed by either the Turks or the British forces in the Sinai and Palestine campaign. Gas masks and training occurred regularly as were intelligence warnings that use might be made of poison gasses - especially at Gallipoli, but no such events actually occurred.

Cheers

Bill

[Gerald Moore]

Hi Bill;

Gullett states that Ali Muntar and other positions were bombarded by British gas shells (of an unspecified variety) on April 19, 1917 - was this an error in his history? The ALH troopers seen in the Atawineh photos have what appear to be PH gas helmet haversacks slung under their left arms. Did the Turkish troops have any gas masks?

Gullett also makes an interesting comment that it was predicted that the gas attack would be ineffective, due to prevailing winds and dispersed positions. It would seem that a gas bombardment of the relatively compact Turkish redoubts might have potentially been an effective tactic - perhaps their positions on higher ground gave the Turks some protection? Regards,

Gerald

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

My readings show that gas training was started in early 1917 with the PH type masks you mention. This training and courses continued up to the end of the war with a gas officer or Sgt being attached to each LH Bde HQ.

This was very unpopular with the aussie troops, but I could find no ref that masks were issued to the LH/ICC, but I sure they were.

As you quote the British ussed gas but due to the high winds and the temp the gas was disapated well before it caused many if any losses to the Turks.

Would that have happened in dropped into a redoubt, well yes as all were built on high features and with the winds then I think any use would have ended the same, but I am willing to be corrected.

I think the issue of masks to our men was not only to protect against our own gas but since we used it they beleived the Turks/German would also start to use it, which didn't happen.

Cheers

S.B

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Gerald

G'day mate

Gullett states that Ali Muntar and other positions were bombarded by British gas shells (of an unspecified variety) on April 19, 1917 - was this an error in his history?

My bad. I stand corrected.

Here is a list of chronological references in Gullett:

"Murray appears to have attached great importance to the recent arrival of six tanks and a considerable supply of gas shells from England. "

"Experts also pointed out that the day light atmosphere and constant winds of southern Palestine, together with the absence of a concentrated enemy, would make the successful use of gas very doubtful."

"Murray wrote to Dobell at this time, " I have every confidence it will be most successful. Every detail for the attack should be worked out before assuming the offensive. All gas preparations should be carefully prepared in case it is necessary to use them, and an overwhelming supply of shells should be at hand. A two days' preliminary bombardment is strongly recommended, even at the risk of the enemy evacuating Gaza, in which case the cavalry must pursue with the greatest vigour." "

"and the two generals were so satisfied about the position that they were for some time in doubt as to whether it would be necessary to use gas although 2,000 gas-shells were now at Belah. Dobell therefore asked the chief of Murray's staff whether the Commander-in-Chief "wished me definitely to use gas-shells except in case of urgent necessity." "Neither the enemy's numbers nor the strength of his positions," Dobell wrote, "are likely to force the necessity upon me, so far as I can judge." "

"The scruple about the use of gas is difficult to understand after the shells had been brought all the way from England to Belah. Perhaps Murray hesitated about being the first to introduce the terrible new weapon on a front where it had been until then a stranger; but towards the middle of April, when even Dobell became impressed by the rapid growth of the Turkish forces and defences, its employment was definitely decided upon. "

"Gas-shells were freely used against Ali Muntar and other strong points"

The expert opinion won the day. Gas shells proved to be useless despite Dobell having 2,000 shells at his command. Indeed, those shells detracted from the stocks of HE and shrapnel severely lacked by the LH Regiments who were on most occasions forced to move forward without any artillery support or desultory at best on 19 April 1917.

This was the first and last time gas was employed by anyone.

As Steve has said, the Light Horse hated it.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

G'day mate

The men received their gas helmets on 7 April 1917.

Here is the 9th LHR RO for the day:

There are many more RO's dealing with training etc but this definitely sets the date.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

This RO issued on 24 April 1917, just after Gaza 2 deals with the fear of a Turkish gas attack.

The bottom paragraph is pertinent and says:

It is known that the enemy intend using gas in future attacks and every effot is to be made to keep the helmets in good order. The reinforcements marching in today will be at once trained and all ranks will be frequentlhy practiced in the care and use of the helmets.

Well, as we know with 20/20 hindsight, the Turks didn't and this was an unfounded fear. But after tossing a few at the Turks I suppose they expected payback.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

Just so we know what we are looking at, here is a pic of the gas helmet in question.

You can see the smiling faces of the men as they parade with their gas helmets in the 40C temperatures at Abasan el Kebir.

Cheers

Bill

[domsim]

Guys

Just read a paper by Yigal Sheffy where he states gas was considered for use a Gallipoli, Churchill being the chief advocate. Early in November 1915 6,000 cylinders (190 tons) of gas with operators sailed to Gallipoli. However General Munro, C in C MEF, rejected its use especially as plans for an evacuation took shape. Gas was never used at Gallipoli.

Murray planned to use gas at First Gaza (interestingly Sheffy also notes that it was agreed that British troops in East Africa were to be equipped with chemical weapons). Murray requested 24,000 tear and lethal shells but by mid-March 1917 only several hundred had been delivered. In the event Murray chose not to use his tanks or gas.

Gas shells were used at second Gaza in the preparatory bombardment on 19 April 1917, 2,000 were fired. Unfortunately the gas seems to have had no effect on the defenders, indeed the Turks were never aware that they had been attacked by gas until they read British accounts after the war.

At third Gaza Allenby fired off 10,000 gas shells mainly as a diversion to make the Turks think Gaza was the main point of the attack. The Germans were convinced this would happen and issued gas masks to troops in October 1917.

Sheffy says that neither the Turks nor Germans seriously considered using chemical weapons for offensive operations or retaliation. The Brits on the other hand had 100,000 ‘special shells’ stock piled on the eve of Megiddo in September 1918. This pile was still being shipped back in 1920 when some was transferred to Mesopotamia for use against Arab rebels.

Cheers

Dominic