Guest guthroth Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 Hi I found some details about a great-great uncle who was kia in 1917. He was a private with the 4th Bttn, Bedfordshire Rgt, Service No: 27401 Apart from the soldiers died cd, can anyone tell me where I might find out more about his service record or unit ? TIA Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 Pete, Just posting up the man's details for everyone (That means you, Mr Fuller) Medal card of Rose, James Corps Regiment No Rank Bedfordshire Regiment 27401 Private CWGC: Name: ROSE, JAMES GEORGE Initials: J G Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Bedfordshire Regiment Unit Text: 4th Bn. Age: 23 Date of Death: 14/02/1917 Service No: 27401 Additional information: Son of James John and Sarah Rose, of 5, Wrotham Rd., West Ealing, London. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 2 C. Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL The battalion were in trenches at Beaumont Hamel from the 6th to the 16th February 1917. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen D Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 Edit your thread title to say Beds Regt and steve fuller will be on the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 I presume you've seen the advice given on this very site (click The Long, Long Trail and Researching a Soldier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guthroth Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 Hi I also found this ** 11 Feb 1917 4 Bedf.R. ordered to push forward their line of posts on the E side of the PUISIEUX ROAD from a line R.2.a.9.6. - R.1.b.6.4. to an advanced position R.2.a.9.6. - R.1.b.7.9. Two companies to attack and lined up on tape running from R.2.a.5.3. - R.1.b.7.4. with 1 Company in Support holding trench R.2.c.3.9. - R.1.b.6.2. Company carrying party ready for consolidation. Zero hour 9 pm. Barrage on enemy front system of posts about R.1.b.5.7. - R.2.a.1.9. - R.1.a.4.8. for 5 min.lifting gradually until 9.30 p.m. 9.5 p.m. At 9.5 p.m. the line advanced. The left Company was temporally [sic] held up by enemy wire ad heavy M.G.fire about R.2.a.2.8. and the Company in Support was then pushed forward. 12 Feb 1917 3 a.m. Objective gained, line straightened out and posts consolidated 15-16 Feb 1917 - Mackenzie Huts, Martinsart 188th Inf.Bde. relieved 190th Inf.Bde. on North bank of ANCRE. 1st R.M.L.I. relieved 4/Bedf.R. on left sub-sector (BEAUCOURT Sector). Frontage R.1.b.4.7. - R.2.a.9.6. The Bn. proceeded to MACKENZIE HUTS MARTINSART. 6-16 Feb 1917 Casualties Killed 68. Wounded 90. Missing 3. Missing believed Killed 45. Officers killed Lieut.L.T.DESPICHT, MC. Adjt. 2.Lieut.G.McKIRDY. 2.Lieut.V.B.SHOTT. Officers wounded 2.Lieut.W.B.STIMSON. 2.Lt.H. SMART. 2.Lt.R.S.THOMAS. 2.Lt.A.W.THOMAS. 2.Lt.D.H.BERRY. ** from the 4th Bttn war diary which is online here : http://bedfordregiment.org.uk/id45.html I assume therefore, that my relative - actually my mum's great uncle - was one of the 45 men missing believed killed. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guthroth Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 I presume you've seen the advice given on this very site (click The Long, Long Trail and Researching a Soldier) Yes, it was from there I found the CWGC site and the first details. Thanks. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 The above extracts you have found are from Steve Fuller's website. Hopefully, he may have some more information. Also, it may be that he was one of the men killed, and his grave later lost in subsequent fighting and not necessarily one of the Missing. EDIT: The Times of 12-3-1917 lists these men in its Casualty Lists as Killed: Horace Moss Allen, 4th Bn, d 14-2-1917, Thiepval Memorial. W Barnes, 4th Bn, d 13-2-1917, Ancre British Cemetery, Beaumont-Hamel. Thomas James Coates, 4th Bn, d 13-2-1917, Thiepval Memorial Edward Ellis, 4th Bn, d 11-2-1917, Thiepval Memorial. Arthur Hill, 4th Bn, d 14-2-1917, Thiepval Memorial. Horace Hull, 4th Bn, d 11-2-1917, Thiepval Memorial. Reginald Alfred Lee, 8th Bn, d 3-2-1917, Vermelles British Cemetery. Charles Mardle, 4th Bn, d 13-2-1917, Ancre British Cemetery, Beaumont-Hamel. Ernest James Pearson, 8th Bn, d 4-2-1917, Vermelles British Cemetery. George Robert Robinson, 8th Bn, d 4-2-1917, Vermelles British Cemetery. Alfred Savill, 4th Bn, d 14-2-1917, Thiepval Memorial. Frederick Taylor, 4th Bn, d 14-2-1917, Thiepval Memorial. Horace James Taylor, 4th Bn, d 14-2-1917, Theipval Memorial. George Godfrey Wagstaff, 4th Bn, d 14-2-1917, Serre Road Cemetery No2. Wallace George Leicester Young, 8th Bn, d 7-2-1917, Vermelles British Cemetery. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 23 March , 2006 Share Posted 23 March , 2006 - well, theres not much else to say really - the Pals have covered most of it! Im afraid I dont have James on my database, although he may be on the hundreds of Medal Roll pages I have yet to index. His service number suggests enlistment into the Beds Regiment Autumn to winter 1915, more likely to be Nov/Dec 1915, but he may have been in another regiment beforehand for all I know. His Medal Index Card will confirm / correct that of course. If late 1915 enlistment is correct, he would have entered the Btn in France early summer, just ebfore they were sent to france, so perhaps he was in the 10th Btn (or similar) training & drafted to the 4th in time for their mobilisation? They fought at the Somme, and a brave attack at Beaumont Hamel Nov 1916, which he did well to survive to be honest. The 4th Btn diary is sparce of Appendices for the period & I dont have "The Wasp" mags for them, BUT the lovely Gloria on forum has I believe. Im sure I saw a post re the 4th Btn at Beaumont Hamel Nov 1916 from her recently, so hopefully she will pop up on here soon with inspiration! Sorry I can add little detail as I have not come across him before, but his service record would be the natural place to try & get to. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guthroth Posted 23 March , 2006 Share Posted 23 March , 2006 Hi thanks for the insights, it will certainly fuel further research. Three quick questions however. 1. If the battalion lost almost 200 men in November and more than 200 in February presumably they were receiving regular drafts of new men as well - yes ? 2. In general terms, about how many men would have been fit for service before each of these attacks ? 3. What was the 'official' strength of an infantry battalion in 1917 ? TIA Pete - well, theres not much else to say really - the Pals have covered most of it! Im afraid I dont have James on my database, although he may be on the hundreds of Medal Roll pages I have yet to index. His service number suggests enlistment into the Beds Regiment Autumn to winter 1915, more likely to be Nov/Dec 1915, but he may have been in another regiment beforehand for all I know. His Medal Index Card will confirm / correct that of course. If late 1915 enlistment is correct, he would have entered the Btn in France early summer, just ebfore they were sent to france, so perhaps he was in the 10th Btn (or similar) training & drafted to the 4th in time for their mobilisation? They fought at the Somme, and a brave attack at Beaumont Hamel Nov 1916, which he did well to survive to be honest. The 4th Btn diary is sparce of Appendices for the period & I dont have "The Wasp" mags for them, BUT the lovely Gloria on forum has I believe. Im sure I saw a post re the 4th Btn at Beaumont Hamel Nov 1916 from her recently, so hopefully she will pop up on here soon with inspiration! Sorry I can add little detail as I have not come across him before, but his service record would be the natural place to try & get to. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 24 March , 2006 Share Posted 24 March , 2006 The Btn were probably receiving drafts, yes. The December & January War Diaries arent at the NA, despite several searches in several Divisional boxes Im afraid! If they were, we would be able to see when drafts arrived & what size they were. Hard to say what size the attacking strength was to be honest as it varied constantly. Generally I would guesstimate that (based on the factors regarding the 4th Btn at the time) in Nov they were around 800, and probably slightly less in Feb. All the Btns in the bedfords suffered from illness that winter but the 63rd Division seemed to have a low illness rate. I was chatting to gloria about it last year & we wondered if it was to do with the Royal Navy ussuing somthing in the rations that seamen also got, which may have hlped keep scurvy etc down to a mimimum? Anyway, I woudl estmate around 7-800 field strength by Feb, although the lack of draft info makes it impossible to confirm of course. The official strength early 1917 was in the process of changing from memory. The number of Lewis Guns was increased to 16 per Btn (from memory) & infantrymen reduced slightly. Was just over 1,000 before the shake up and just under after it! Hope this helps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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