manchester regiment

[bernardmcilwaine]

during the march offensive pte george,william bailey was wounded a captured on 21st march,he died 4 days later,hes buried at hancourt,ime assuming this is where he died or nearby,did the germans have a hospital in this area,does any pal know its name,bernard

[Doug Johnson]

Bernard,

The cemetery details are a little unclear but would seem to infer that there were no British burials until Sept 1918. All the March ones would appear to have been brought from around the battlefield after the war. There is no mention of graves having been moved from a hospital cemetery which some cemetery details do.

Other than a hospital there are a couple of other possibilities;

a) He was not badly wounded and was killed whilst working behind the German lines. There are instances of men or groups of prisoners being killed by friendly shell fire whilst digging trenches, moving munitions etc.

He was badly wounded and either died or was killled before he was moved out of the battlefield area. Medical treatment varied enormously.

It would be worth downloading some sections of WO161 to see if they have relevant information. If you search on the Manchesters there are several references to soldiers being employed behind the lines. The report they are in was given by someone who must have been close by even if he was not in the Manchester regiment. If you are lucky there may be one for the same time frame and area which may give you a clue as to what was happening. Looking at some of the page numbers, these will probably be the better reports which contain information on the action and capture which the earlier reports do not contain. Probably inclued as a result of a request by the Australians. The WO161 index starts to fall down around this point in the series. Some page numbers are actually report numbers and the reports are not in the printed document but in a list of unused reports. This applies only to report references and not mentions.

I will look later to see if I have any of those sections already downloaded. Even later I might try and identify if any of the other sections I have downloaded contain reports from men taken at the same time and place though I would probably want to index them at the same time so it will not be today and probably not tomorrow either.

Doug

[SiegeGunner]

Bernard,

I am also interested in this area, as my great-Uncle is still there somewhere (see my signature). From the attached map, his unit (9th) and your man's (2/6) started the day alongside one another (top right). I don't have day-by-day maps showing the line of withdrawal, but it must have passed through or near to Hancourt. By 24 March both units were astride the Somme Canal between Péronne and Villers-Carbonnel. Someone else will no doubt tell us where the Germans got to on Day 1, but I don't think it was as far as Hancourt. I'm wondering, therefore, whether your man might have been evacuated westwards by his own side after being wounded on 21/3 and fell into German hands later, somewhere near Hancourt ? I'm afraid I don't know anything about German hospital organisation, but it seems unlikely that they would have carried British wounded forward with their advance.

regards

Mick

[bernardmcilwaine]

many thanks for looking doug.

mick thats a great map,is it from a book,bernard

[SiegeGunner]

Bernard,

I got the map off the Net and I'm afraid I don't know the original source. Here's the map for 24 March.

regards

Mick

[Doug Johnson]

Bernard,

I have a 6022 Gnr James Henry, 330th Brigade, RFA taken prisoner at Montigny Farm on the 22nd (unwounded). Now unfortunately I have very little knowledge of the front as my grandfathers war ended more or less in 1914 after one action so I have no idea where the following places James Henry was taken to are;

Estrees 22/23 March

Guillemont 23/26 March

Le Chatelet 26 March to 5 May Rations dump

Hamel 5 May to 24 Aug (where a Manchester man died) munitions dump

Doug

PS I will keep looking

[bernardmcilwaine]

many thanks doug

bernard

[SiegeGunner]

Doug,

Could you please post a link to WO 161 and a few words of explanation of how to progress to reports dealing with events on 21/3/18 in the area Bernard and I are interested in.

Thanks and regards

Mick

[Doug Johnson]

Mick,

You are probably aware of most of this but most prisoners released or escaped before the armistice were interviewed mainly in relation to their treatment post capture (sometimes they contain snippets of the action). Some, but not all of these reports, were printed up and form WO 161/95 to 101 where 95 & 96 are officers reports, 97 are Medical Officers reports, 98 to 100 are other ranks and 101 is the index. Officers reports are usually more detailed than the others and later reports are more detailed than earlier ones. Please note though that some of the later reports are editied down to exclude certain camps as they are repeating what is in earlier reports. The index is on line on this site, however the original index contains quite a few errors and is a bit confusing as all the unprinted reports are listed in WO 161 but not all of them are in the index (there are hundreds of names in WO161 not in the index). Often where an unused report is indexed it quotes the report number as the page number which has caused me to download some pages in error. (not complaining as at £3.50 a throw for 50 pages they make fascinating reading). As the reports are printed more or less in order of the report being taken it is not that easy to pick out soldiers with a particular date of capture, however the later the action, the less there is to search eg for anyone captured in 1914 they could appear anywhere in the printed reports but for other ranks captured around March 1918 they would probably appear from pages 2500 onwards. I can't tell the actual pages as I have no pages downloaded from 2500 to 3000. I have very little in the way of officers reports downloaded as I don't have that much interest in them. The pages are available on the same NA site as the MICs just type in WO 161/98 or whatever part you want and a list will appear. Each section is provided as about 10 pdf files and each file covers from 1 to five pages

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...ery=wo%20161/98

If Australians were involved then the AWM red cross wounded and missing files are useful. They often contain eye witness reports regarding the fate of those the red cross is enquiring about. They can be a bit gory sometimes but that is what they lived with every day so it became normal to see people blown apart etc.

I will see if I can post a small part of the WO161 files so you can see what they contain.

Bernard,

In connection with your quest, it is possible that the report of wounded and capture was by the British ie he was seen wounded and was left behind and therefore assumed to have been captured. I read one case last night of a wounded soldier lying for six days before he was found by the Germans and taken back for treatment. Delays in being picked up from the battlefield were not normal but were not unusual. He may not have survived beyond the CCS.

Doug

[bernardmcilwaine]

doug,thanks for all your help,and the POW lists are handy to know about,brilliant,bernard

[SiegeGunner]

Thanks Doug, and thanks Bernard for letting me 'share' your thread. I would be particularly interested in any debriefs of POWs from the 9th Manchesters, as my great-uncle was 'presumed' dead on the basis of an unofficial report given some time before 12 May 1918 (so from someone who was not captured), but I know that my great-grandfather harboured forlorn hopes that Jack might have been wounded/captured and spent years after the war trying to find someone who had actually seen him killed.

Mick

[Doug Johnson]

Mick,

The report probably came through the Red Cross. They has files on all those they had enquiries about and some they didn't. Enquiries were usually from relatives asking for details of the death or looking for those who were missing. You will see references to the Red Cross enquiry lists on the forum on which no14 August 1st 1917 has been re published and is available to buy (the lists are only for current enquiries). These lists are usually referenced in connection with PoW's but in truth there are very few references to PoW's in them. Most are casualties. The lists are quite useful as they often give not only company but also platoon. Useful if you have a history that gives locations of companies or platoons during a battle. The AWM Wounded and Missing files are available free on line and these give a flavour of what the British ones would contain. I do not know whether anyone has made enquires of the British Red Cross to see if theirs still exist.

This is a line from the 9th Manchesters in the Enquiry list no 14;

9 D XIII Lord S 352320 (4877) M April 25/17

He is one of three missing from D company on 25th in the list.

The list also tells you whether he was mising before being reported as killed.

The CWGC confirms him as having no grave with a date of death as 25th April 1917.

Doug

[CROONAERT]

Bernard,

I got the map off the Net and I'm afraid I don't know the original source. Here's the map for 24 March.

regards

Mick

Bernard.

Those maps are from the Official History of the War, Military Operations France and Belgium 1918 map volume.

Dave.

[Doug Johnson]

I have not been able to add a WO161 report so here is a transcription of part of one.

Page No 3222 report no 2601

Melia, Patrick, Private, No 200802, 2/5th East Lancs

10 Pitt Street, Heywood, Lancashire (his address)

Le Hamel, on the 4th April 1918 (place and date of capture)

unwounded

I was at Roselle R E Dump when the German attack started on the 21 st March and we retired gradually till we got to Le hamel and joined the 16th division with whom we fought for eight days and held our ground, but on the 4th April the Germans had got all round us and a large party belonging to several battalions, including myself, had to surrender. They split us up into small parties and some were commandered for stretcher parties, and others, including myself, to go round the farms and collect all the animals and drive them into the German lines. Then they marched all the unwounded prisoners for about three hours to Bray, when they put us in a collecting cage with five or six wooded huts, about 100 men in each, and sent us out to work every day in parties of 30 or 50. We were there about a week and I was employed erecting large tents for aeroplanes and levelling the ground round, and from there we went to Cappy for about a week, during which I was employed on the same job. We were within shell fire from the British lines, but I do not know that any were hit.

The report goes on and the above is about a quarter. From Cappy he went to Cambrai then to Le Quesnoy, Fins, Fins hospital (having collapsed), Le Cateau Hospital and then Ohrdruf from where he was repatriated on 12 September.

Not all are as good in the first section as this.

Doug

[CROONAERT]

Bernard.

Here's the map for 21st March. Solid line indicates the frontline in the morning and the broken line indicates the frontline in the morning of 22nd March...

Dave.

[Doug Johnson]

Now the WO161 lists and index.

I have checked a small list on page 3243 which has 12 names whose reports were not used. Of these seven are listed in the index, all with incorrect page numbers, the other five are not listed eg Report no 2613 Chappell H, private 10335 7th Royal fusiliers. Some of the other lists seem to have a higer proportion that are not listed. Despite not being in the index if you have a prisoner released or escaped before the armistice then it is worth checking the printed reports to see if he is listed as an unused report. The point to this is that the original reports, including the unused ones, the abridged ones and the ones on missing pages are reputed to still exist, probably within FO 383 at the NA. Certainly some are listed in the on line index to FO 383.

Doug

[SiegeGunner]

Dave,

I thought that the first of the two maps I posted was for 21 March. If the one you posted is actually 21 March, what date is my first one ?

Thanks

Mick

[CROONAERT]

If the one you posted is actually 21 March, what date is my first one ?

The next one in the sequence - 22nd March to 23rd March.

dave.