Corps Commanders

[armourersergeant]

Paul guthrie has promoted me to do this one when he mentioned General Hunter-Western.

anybody think of corps commanders who should not have been in 'office' and reasons why please.

Arm.

[Guest Hussar]

Bringing Hunter-Bunter into his corrct thread, I found this priceless piece by Ashmead Bartlett, one of the War Correspondants at Gallipoli.

"It is now definitely confirmed that Hunter Weston has fled the Peninsula. His departure is variously ascribed to enteric dysentery or sunstroke but it is certain he will never return having proved himself from the very start to be a perfectly incompetent commander. I realised that after my first conversations with him. He seemed to me not to have the smallest knowledge of war and to throw away many lives in the most wicked and reckless manner without having any clear idea in his mind of any objective. He was detested by his troops. I never in fact heard anyone say a good word for him. He was known as the Giggling Butcher. He had the habit of going round and seeing the survivors of his abortive assaults on Achi Baba and congratulating them on their achievements in the same words every time. The men who had gone through Hell naturally got sick of this realising how they had been mishandled. Wilson vouched for this story. Hunter Weston went to the end of the Pier at Lancashire Landing to see someone off. Whilst he was there a shell was fired from Asis, an hourly occurrence of which no one takes much notice after 4 months of this sort of thing. But the General Commanding the Helles Army Corps did not wait for a second one neither did he retire with dignity but dashed off the Pier and made for a dug out at full speed amidst the hardly concealed jeers of the onlookers. Well he has gone Thank God after helping to slaughter the equivalent of three as good Divisions as ever wore the British uniform. Nothing can bring back the dead and I do not think anyone will attempt to bring back Hunter Weston. "

[paul guthrie]

I am going to place the Earl of Cavan here as a maybe. I have visited the Asiago Plateau and it's a great visit, even prettier than the Vosges.

June 15, 1918 British were attacked by a pauper starving AH Army which had to cross a huge expanse of land to get at them, they did and broke the front of 48th Div. several places. This should not have happened. The ground crossed is wide open, though some of the first to be crossed was dead to the Brits. It was not only long it was uphill. On this Cavan belongs; but, I do not know his subsequent record and that's why I said maybe. It also occurs to me that Haig let his worst divisions go there, but I do not know this. The 7th was there and at times I think it was quite good including Italy at Papadolla Island( bet you can't spell it either!)

Hunter Weston was terrible from the beginning and whoever rehired him after Gallipoli and Somme made a bad move.

[Guest Hussar]

Paul,

I thought Asiago was in June 1916, whereas 'Fatty' Cavan didn't go to Italy untill November 1917 after the fiasco at Capareto. His first major action there was at the Battle of the Piave River in June 1918.

He was generally regarded as the best Corps Commander on the Western Front and so, IMHO, he doesn't deserve to be here.

[paul guthrie]

Hussar the attack I mention is June 15,1918, was he not Corps Commander? I have Francis McKay's Asiago book in the car. He was the guide on the trip I took. I think it was Cavan but will check. In any event if he was that good otherwise I must agree with you, I will not put a good man on a donkey list for one bad day. The Asiago battle I mention was 1918, there were no British there in 1916, there was big fighting in 1916 but against Italians, called strafeexpedition or something close, punishment battle to punish their treachery for violating alliance with Germany & AH.

[Guest Hussar]

Paul,

Profuse apologies, you are, of course, correct. There was a second battle at Asiago which formed part of the one at Piave.

'At 3am on 15th June, a heavy bombardment including gas opened on the entire British front and battery position. However, the fire was not registered nor accurate, but brought trees down and sent lareg rock splinters flying. Artillery signalling lines were soon out of action. British counter-battery work commenced at 5am and was throughout the day very successful.

The infantry attack opened at 7am, and the battle soon broke in the mist and wooded country into fragemented local affairs, with hand to hand fighting. The 23rd Division lost a little ground at the flanks but recovered it during the day. The front of the48th Division was broken at several places but again this was recovered by early on the 16th.'

[David_Blanchard]

General Hamilton Gordon IX Corps:

Bulfin called Hamilton Gordon’s appointment to corps command ‘Haig’s idea of a joke’. Haldane, not necessarily the most reliable source, believed Hamilton Gordon was only appointed because he was a friend of Haig’s. (This is in Haldane’s diary in the National Library of Scotland.) Haig did, indeed, have a high opinion of Hamilton Gordon from their time together at the War Office when Hamilton Gordon was GSO1 in the Directorate of Military Operations. Haig tended to favour gunners in appointing corps commanders. Rawlinson, also, thought Hamilton Gordon was an inadequate corps commander and it was Rawly who eventually got rid of him (see Rawlinson’s diary for June 1918). Hamilton Gordon had a notoriously melancholy disposition that earned him the nicknames ‘Sunny Jim’ and ‘Merry and Bright’. This was not something that usually recommended officers to Haig. Hamilton Gordon seems to have been a competent gunner.

As John Bourne has said:

' It must also have been a weakness that he never commanded any formation lower than corps on the Western Front. By 1918 the best British corps commanders, men like Cameron Shute, had worked their way up from battalion command and were real fighting generals. Corps command, until Andy Simpson proves me wrong, seems to me to have been the weakest link in the chain of command by 1918.'

.

[armourersergeant]

Cameron Shute? please enlighten me.

use the other postfor good corps commanders etc if he was a good as i know hardly anything about him.

Arm.

[David_Blanchard]

Lieutenant-General Sir Cameron Deane Shute (1866-1936) commanded 59th brigade, 63rd (Royal Naval) Division, 32nd Division and V Corps on the Western Front. His nickname is a classic pun - ‘Tiger shoot’, geddit? His nickname therefore owed everything to his surname, but it also suited his character. He was an exceptionally aggressive commander, a renowned front-line general, an extremely demanding superior and something of a martinet.

( From Centre for First World War Studies Birmingham University)

http://www.firstworldwar.bham.ac.uk/nickna...names/shute.htm

[armourersergeant]

David,

I am an idiot i have read something about this man and it was from this site it was the tiger shute that reminded me. I find the Birm site a very good little info place and John Bourne a patient correspondant, though i try not to test his patience too often.

Arm.

[Guest Hussar]

David,

Hamilton Gordon, though not brilliant, did command adequately to begin with, achieving some success with IX Corps at Messines in 1917.

Although he lost the ridge in the attack in April the following year. I believe his real problem, later on the 3rd Aisne, was that, as a Gunner, he deferred to the French General Duchene who, I believe was in command of his Divisions. Because Duchene didn't believe in the modern idea of defence in depth, he followed the old edict of cramming the front line with men, this of course proved disastrous not only for the soldiers but also for both Duchene and Hamilton Gordon.

[David_Blanchard]

Just to play Devil's advocate here. You mention the 'modern idea of defence in depth', do you mean the modern idea of defence in depth that was deployed in March 1918?

Coming back to Hamilton Gordon, he should have defered to Haig on the Aisne when he ran into trouble with the French commander. Certainly divisional commanders Campbell and Heneker had lost faith in his abilities, and in effect both they and some brigadiers did unilaterally pull back units across the Aisne. (see PRO CAB 45 The Aisne Authors)

In defence of Duchene, admittedly not a great communicator, was put in an invidious position on the Aisne, to give up the ridges of the Chemin des Dames (where the French has lost thousands of men wresting from the Germans as part of the Nivelle Offensive) would have been like giving up Verdun or even Ypres. It is easy to criticise his defence here, but going back to my original point, where had defence in depth worked that successfully beforehand? The British 'birdcages' on the Somme have come in for some stick

[Guest Hussar]

David,

Yes, I was referring to Petains edict for an 'Elastic Defence'. Duchene, along with many others, still favoured the Nivelle view of 'Offence, Offence, Offence.' and openly dismissed the notion of tactical defence.

Heneker, Campbell and Jackson, respectively were alarmed at Duchene's approach to infantry deployment - having experienced the effects of such defence against the Germans in Flanders - and personally protested their concerns to both Duchene and Hamilton Gordon. He recommended to Duchene that the policy of defence in depth be adopted for the eventuality of an attack. Duchene disagreed, preferring to mass troops in front-line trenches.

As you say, perhaps he should have spoken to Haig but, then again, Duchene was in overall charge of the sector and he was required to place himself under Duchene's direction. Knowing Haigs tendency to vaccilate when required to be decisive, would he have told him to disobey Duchene and risk upsetting the French?

[David_Blanchard]

I think that with the benefit of hindsight it is possible to see Haig's hesitation on a number of occasions, but I don't think it was evident at the time. I also have a feeling that Heneker and Campbell, had they been Corps commanders would have communicated there feelings to Haig more effectively than Hamilton Gordon.

Divisional commanders and the CRE of the 21st Division, Addison, was particularly forthright in there views of Hamilton Gordon. He had never visited the frontlines on the Aisne, and furthermore it was felt he was very weak in not standing up to Duchene. (CAB 45)

In fact it wasnt just about elastic defence on the Aisne, much of the British lines were held as outposts, there was a Battle Zone that was more strongly held, it was more to do with a general withdrawal back over the Aisne.

Elastic defence was a concept that was alien to both the British and French; the British as much as the French were in favour of the offensive up until March 1918. It didnt work on the Somme or on the Lys in April. The Germans had effectively been on the defensive on the Western Front since the end of the Somme. They had perfected this form of defence, a bit like Liverpool last season, they proved experts at counterattacking. The French and the British, certainly in early 19818 didn't grasp this concept.

[paul guthrie]

Back to the Earl of Cavan, 48th Division commander Sir Robert Fawnshawe was sacked and did not command troops at the front again. Cavan consulted him during the battle and did not countermand orders or issue new ones. Was sacking one and nothing for the other right? I do not have enough on the battle to say but it sure raises a question.

Something else, this site on this battle calls the belief the AH Army was hungry and ill equipped at this time a myth. I call that nonsense and contrary to EVERYTHING I have ever read about that Army.

I know three Brits with a lot of knowledge of this campaign but none are pals, McKay mentioned above, Dale Hjort and John Chester.

You all had plenty of Fawnshawes didn't you? I can't keep them straight.

And Hussar there was certainly no need for an apology for a mere mistake but thanks anyway.

And speaking of commanders, I know little about Horne compared to other army commanders. I have considered Duchene bad but solely on the basis of things contained in this thread.

[Guest Hussar]

Paul,

Re: Horne, have you looked here?

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/horne.htm

[paul guthrie]

Thanks, took a look also at Monro, had read relatively little about him also.

Pals, I added to a thread today on WFA forum about the alleged famous Kiggell quote, may want to look.