Change History Question' dead generals

[armourersergeant]

Ok it change History time for those that want to play.

Can anybody give me a General that was killed in 1914 or 1915 that could have made a difference to the war effort, and you must qualify your answer or you will be banned from the classroom.

Arm.

[Dolphin]

He passed away through natural causes, rather than being killed, but I'd suggest General Sir James Grierson, the first commander of the BEF's II Corps, might have made a significant difference had he not died in early August 1914.

Why? He was a keen pre-War student of the German Army, so he may have had something of an insight into enemy behaviour. I also recall reading somewhere that he defeated Haig in pre-War manouvres. Grierson's death led to General Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien's appointment as II Corps commander, much to Sir John French's displeasure.

[armourersergeant]

Dolphin,

I have often pondered this question of Grierson. How would Le Cateau have gone , would he have stood and faced the Germans. If not what would have happened to the BEF in 1914. I think he was not only a great studier of the German army i beleive at one point he was too close an admirer. Fortunately he realised his mistake and came round to realising what the Kaiser was intending and the possible consequences.

Other possibles that could have made a difference were perhaps Johnnie Gough younger brother of Hubert and perhaps the more astute soldier than his brother. Also what about Major-General Capper who i believe was killed at Loos. though i have heard it said that they were not sure if he was brilliant or just plain Mad. I suppose it depends on which side of the fence you look at it from.

Arm.

Ps.. wasnt someone reading a bio of Grierson that they had ordered. Whats it like?

[Chris_Baker]

What about Major-General Thompson Capper KCMG CB DSO, who died of wounds received at Loos?

He was a real fighting General, and had led 7th Division since formation. He had been with the Chitral Relief Force, and through the Sudan and South Africa. 1906-11 he was Commandant of the Indian Staff College, and became Inspector of Infantry in 1914. Capper was wounded by an accidental explosion at a grenade demonstration in April 1915, and was wounded near Hulluch quarries when going forward to recconoitre. He died at No 6 CCS and is now buried in Lillers Communal Cemetery Extension.

[Dolphin]

I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm sure I'm not the first contributor to the Forum to do such a thing.

In 'August 1914' Barbara Tuchman indicates that Smith-Dorrien was far from being French's choice to replace Grierson, as the two weren't exactly mutual friends [to put it mildly], and that he wanted an unnamed other officer.

Does anyone know who French wanted?

[armourersergeant]

If Tuchman did not know she did not do her research correctly as i thought it was common knowledge that French wanted and requested Plummer. And guess what who replaced SD after he was dismissed ....yes you guessed it Plummer.

I am never sure wether Kitchener sent sd to wind French up or just because he thought sd was the better man?

Arm.

[Dolphin]

Thanks for that.

You confirmed something I was pretty sure that I'd either read or heard but couldn't find the source.

[Guest Hussar]

How about Sir William Bridges?

The first Australian to reach General rank. He was also the first Australian General to be killed during the war, at Gallipoli on 18 May 1915.

1886, commissioned into the New South Wales Permanent Artillery trained at Woolwich (the Royal Military Academy) and at Shoeburyness (the Royal School of Gunnery).

served during the South African War of 1899-1902 with Sir John French served as Assistant Quartermaster-General and Chief of Military Intelligence before being appointed Chief of the General Staff on 1 January 1909

first Australian representative on Britain's Imperial General Staff.

May 1914, appointed Inspector General. 5 August, given responsibility for the creation of an Australian Imperial Force comprised of 20,000 men.

sailed from Australia on, 26 October 1914, to Egypt and on to Gallipoli, disembarking at Anzac Cove on 25 April 1915.

Regarded as something of a cold man and generally disliked by his own staff, he was nevertheless much admired for his fearless courage, daily touring the front lines while under heavy fire.

It was while touring the lines on 15 May 1915 that Bridges was shot through the femoral artery by a Turkish sniper.

[ianw]

Given that most Generals killed might be considered as products of the pre-war Army system , is it not likely that more creative ability was lost in the way of more junior officers especially perhaps in terms of eventual impact on command failings in WW2.

One thinks of Alanbrooke bemoaning the dearth of talent available to him in 1941 and 1942 . Surely officers of the calibre of Major William Congreve V.C would have been great leaders in WW2, but men of courage and ability like this were most likely to perish.On the other hand , Gort was a fire breathing young officer in the Great War but didn't set the world on fire in WW2 and Freyberg perhaps had a disappointing WW2 as well. Perhaps the German system kept a somewhat higher proportion of talented officers alive for longer by putting more burden of battlefield leadership on the NCO's ?

[Guest Hussar]

Although not DEAD, what about Brigadier-General The Hon. Arthur Melland Asquith

DSO**, GOC 189th Infantry Brigade RND.

Wounded for the 4th time in December 1917 he had to have his leg amputated and was unable to resume his, hitherto, remarkable career..civilian to Brig. General in just over 3 years!

[armourersergeant]

Ian,

Regarding the VC thing , i have found that often Courage and tatical skill do not always go together and that many of those famed for courage do not go on to make the best Generals. Gort, Freyberg are good examples of this. If Courage was the main stay of generalship then Freyberg would have been a Napoloen.

Arm.

[ianw]

Yes , Arm, I agree and mention Gort and Freyberg's relative failure in WW2 in my musings. I suppose being daft enough to risk your own valuable life when you might have sent another bloke shows a lack of judgement that commanders should avoid - so operating from a comfortable chateau 10 miles back represents real command talent after all ! Pass the port, Dougie !

[armourersergeant]

To bring this back to the original question,

I have just received Becketts book on Johnnie Gough, i will post once read as to its content etc, but i am already getting the impression that this man was a thinking soldier in the true sense and whilst i amit that this book was written with the anxe in Goughs favour i am also aware that this maybe because he was that good.

Unlike his brother who did not always think before he acted he does appear to be more level headed, he was a highly influenetial teacher at the staff college and was soon to return home to take up a Divisional command when he was killed.

So far to me this is the one that could possibly have made the difference.

Arm.