1st/4th Bn Gloucestershire Regt Oct/Nov 1916

[Guest Chris2]

First post.

Visited Thiepval in 2002 on the trail of a relative who served in 1st/4th and died in the Regiment on 9 Nov 1916. Am revisiting the area again early next month and planning to walk some of the battlefields. Have found some basic information that shows the unit was around Warlincourt, Albert and Bazentin le Petit at the time but am looking for as much detail on the movements / activities of the regiment as I can find (initially during October / November 1916).

Grateful for any information that members may have, or ideas as to likely sources.

Chris

[Mark Trapnell]

First post.

Visited Thiepval in 2002 on the trail of a relative who served in 1st/4th and died in the Regiment on 9 Nov 1916. Am revisiting the area again early next month and planning to walk some of the battlefields. Have found some basic information that shows the unit was around Warlincourt, Albert and Bazentin le Petit at the time but am looking for as much detail on the movements / activities of the regiment as I can find (initially during October / November 1916).

Grateful for any information that members may have, or ideas as to likely sources.

Chris

Hi Chris

Welcome! I have some good information on 1/4th (City of Bristol) as it was my grandfather's outfit. I have currently the diary of one of the officers which I am transcribing from the original onto my computer. I will look up that date tonight to see what was happening for him that day. Could you post your relative's name rank and anything you know about them that might help me looking up the details? My research is not as extensive as some on this forum as I just concentrate on my grandfather and some of the other officers but we might get lucky!

Mark Trapnell

[HERITAGE PLUS]

See: http://members.tripod.com/%7EGlosters/1st4th.htm

Dave

[Guest Chris2]

Mark

Thanks for your message. Unfortunately not, I am tracing my late Grandmothers brother - Private Sidney Frederick Short 5768. All the details I have show that he died on 9 November 1916. From the web (in fact the page referred to by Dave) I have been able to put together the fact that the 1st/4th were at Albert on 31st Oct (presumably resting or training), at Bazentin-le-petit on 2nd Nov, in support trenches at Martinpuich by the 5th, at Le Sars (7th) and moved to North Camp, Peake Wood, Contalmaison on the 9th. Given the 1/4th suffered a number of casualties on the 8th (incl a Lt HG Phippen who died the following day) the Bttn, or at least part of it, must have been in action on the 8th. My working assumption is that the Sidney, like Lt Phippen, was also probably wounded on the 8th but died on the 9th (or at least his death was not recorded until that date).

The big unanswered question is what they were actually doing - the Public Records Office seems not to have a record of the 1st/4th so I would be very (very) interested in knowing what Lt Phippen’s diary says in terms of the Bttns activities for the last few weeks before the 8th. As I mentioned I am walking from Bazentin to Longueval in a couple of weeks and it would be good to get a feel for the area where Sidney was (if you could ever get a feel for what it must really have been like!).

Chris

[chrislock]

Thank you Dave. my relative was killed on the 9th Oct 1917 as listed. Great info. Chris.

[Glosters]

1/4th Glosters (Appendix - War Diary)

Report on 9th Oct. 1917 and subsequently. Ref. Map Poelcappelle Ed. 4 1/10,000

The plan for moving the Bn to jumping off position was as follows:

The 2nd in Command went on an hour in advance of the Bn with 3 NCO’s per Coy, this party was to lay out the tape lines 50 yards and 200 yards behind Country Cross Roads and then to return to Tweed House to guide the Bn in. The Bn was to move up by Albert Track and then along the Poelcappelle Road to U.30.d.63.80, where they were to have been met by Bucks Bn guides, who would guide them to Tweed House by the taped track via Bavaroise House.

On arrival at U.30.d.63.80 Lt-Col. Crosskey found that the guides were not there and after waiting for a time decided that he would turn about and move up via the Trench board track and Hubner Farm, a route which he knew himself to some extent. This he did and arrived at Tweed House about 1.45 am. But then found that the 3 rear Coys and 1 platoon of the leading one had lost touch. Bn HQ runners were sent out to look for them and ‘C’ Coy (the leading one) was guided down to the jumping-off point. At about 4.30 am ‘A’, ‘B’ and 2 platoons of ‘D’ Coy were brought to Tweed House and taken to the jumping-off point. These Coys were just forming up along the tape when our barrage came down.

The leading Coys ‘A’ (right) and ‘D’ (left) started off at once and got to within 50 yards of the barrage before the first lift. ‘B’ (right) and ‘C’ moved forward a few minutes after. At the first lift the barrage was lost and not caught up again.

Immediately the advance commenced our men came under MG fire from the cemetery in V.26.d and guns in a breastwork in front of Oxford Houses at V.26.b.33.45 and a MG about V.26.a.97.60. Snipers were also very active from the large hedge south of the road in V.26.b, Oxford Houses, Beek Houses and other points North of Lekkerboterbeek.

The bulk of our men were held up approx. on a line 150 yards East of County Cross Roads, but a party of 1 officer and 6 men, the remains of a platoon, pushed on as far as V.26.b.40.15. Another small party under a Sergeant got into the enclosure about Oxford Houses and fortified a shell hole at V.26.b.25.40. Another party under a Sergeant dug in about V.26.b.05.50. No advance appeared to be made on our left so ‘C’ Coy formed a defensive flank facing North with 3 posts and 1 Lewis Gun.

The MG in the cemetery was silenced almost at once by the 6th Glosters and a number of Germans retiring North East of the cemetery came under Lewis Gun fire and rifle fire and suffered casualties.

There was a lot of movement during the day between the Mebus and the enemy post at V.26.b.60.25. This was always fired at and numerous casualties caused. The MG’s in the breastwork about V.26.b.33.45 were dealt with by rifle grenades and during the morning the morning some enemy doubled round the back of Oxford Houses and returned with a light MG. The MG at V.26.b.97.60 was also dealt with by rifle grenades.

What happened during the 5 pm attack will be dealt with by the OC 1/8th Worcesters. The party in Oxford Houses enclosure report that they were 50 yard in front of the barrage. It was this barrage which made the officer and NCO’s commanding Coys in the line decide to retire and consolidate after dark 100 yards in rear of their present positions.

Very few messages were received back from the line after the attack, owing chiefly to the fact that most of the officers became casualties and also heavy sniping made movement very difficult. This also hindered the collection of casualties, the Germans sniped a great deal at our stretcher-bearers on the 9th. On the 10th they left them alone probably because large enemy stretcher parties were out collecting their wounded under the Red Cross Flag.

Steve

[Guest Chris2]

Steve

Many thanks - Some really interesting information in your post which I will now try to relate to maps of the area. Most interesting is the fact that they were actually in action on the 9th - I had assumed that they were in the rear on that date (North Camp, Peake Wood, Contalmaison). Is the source diary in the public domain? Thanks again. Chris

[Guest Chris2]

Steve

Apologies - You were replying to the other "Chris". I only realised this when I found out where Poelcappele was! Grateful if you could advise whether the war diary you have details what the 1st/4th were doing on 9th Nov 1916 please? Chris (aka Chris2)

[Glosters]

Confusing thread

7th November 1916 – Bn relieved 6th Glosters in trenches at Le Sars. Enemy quiet.

8th – Enemy artillery active during day. Heavier shelling 5-7 pm. Lt. E.M. Matthews killed, Capt. E.M. Wookey and Lt. Phippen wounded.

9th – Some shelling. Bn relieved by 5th Warwicks and moved to North Camp, Peake Wood, Contalmaison. Lt. Clark killed and Lt. Laugland wounded during relief.

--------------

Steve

[Guest Chris2]

Steve

Many thanks for the additional information. Far too many Chris'

Chris

[chrislock]

Its not my fault, I blame my parents! I always wanted to be called Maurice!